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Exactly what does it take to change? ⏳ Our hosts Phil and Lauren get straight to the source in a meeting with change management consultant (and former client) Sass Allard. As someone who’s hired to implement and sustain permanent change in companies and people, our guest understands the intricacies of thriving in times of uncertainty. Released with the upcoming new year in mind, use this episode to inspire goals and more!

Phil

Before we dive right into this episode, I wanted to let you know about an awesome freebie we just created, a shot list template. I am a big fan of good photography for any brand and shot lists are basically the critical planning steps for any photography process. I like to think of the shot list as a way to capture your essence for the photographer. The photographer's job is to make sure you look like you and your job is to give them the stage so that you can shine. You're probably investing good money into your photos, so you want to make sure that you're capturing every element of your brand while you've got the time with them. Unless you have a history with your photographer, they likely don't know much about you, so a shot list is a great way to get them up to speed. This template will help you lay it all out: location actions, props, and so much more. Check it out for free at philp.al/shotlist and take all the guesswork away for planning that photoshoot. Now onto the show.

Phil

Well, hello. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.

Lauren

And I'm Lauren.

Phil

And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brands. We're glad you're here. You should be glad you're here. Oh boy, did you pick the right episode to listen in today. Lauren and I are trying this new thing where right off the top rather than us talking about what we're going to talk about. We actually just start this fancy little half an hour or so that we spend together with the guest and this guest is amazing. This is like a long awaited one. Lauren and I have talked about having Sass Sass Sass attack on the podcast. Now, I know I'm a bit silly. But this is what happens when I'm in the same room in person or virtual with our dear friend Sass, who doubled as our recent client and has one of the most beautiful brands on the face of the earth. Sass. Welcome to Brand Therapy.

Sass

Thank you guys. Thank you, Phil. Thank you, Lauren, for having me. Really happy to be here.

Lauren

I'm really excited. And I'm also really into this new switch, Phil, where we don't record separate intros, because why talk the talk when you can walk the walk. And I have a feeling this is part of what Sass preaches, when she helps facilitate change in major organizations around the world, you've got to do the work, not just talk about it.

Sass

Oh, that was weird. I like it. Thanks.

Phil

She's good at those.

Lauren

So I read an article the other day about CEOs and what they really think about remote working. And every single CEO that had been interviewed, and there were four major companies, I can't remember which ones but world renowned companies, all of them said that they don't think remote working is sustainable, that they think there's going to be an absence of meaningful culture development, one of them actually said, you can't expect to put someone who's only been in the workforce for two years in front of a computer and end up where they should be a few years from now, working remotely. Which I don't know why, but I was really offended by that on behalf of all the young people in the workforce. So I'm curious to know from the work that you're doing and the companies that you've worked with, do you think remote working is sustainable? Is it the future? Is it not? What are your thoughts?

Sass

I think what will be sustainable is a hybrid version, combination of working from home and being able to go into the office. So what I specialize in his connection, human energy and contact and working as a change specialist, my role is to go into organizations, and help leaders and their teams adapt to new strategies by understanding what their challenges are, and where they feel they are best or less equipped to move forward. And part of that is team cohesion. And that is really very difficult when you're working online remotely from home or wherever day in day out and clients that I've been working with recently, that's the thing I'm helping them with is how do we get our teams to maintain that bond, that camaraderie that you have, when you can wander over to someone's desk and problem solve. Or you know, there's water cooler moments, where you bump into each other in the kitchen, whilst you're making tea, you just have those nuggets of gold that come out in the workplace when it comes to conversation, learning about each other working on a project. It doesn't always happen when you're sat in that official meeting room, whether it's virtual or not. And that is the biggest challenge that so many companies are facing today in this current climate is how do we maintain that team cohesion?

So I think going forward, as we hope that this, this landscape starts to adjust because we're calling it the new normal, aren’t we, I don't think we're going to go back to the way we were and we are going to have to find a way to adjust going forward. I think it's going to be a hybrid version of going into the office working with teams occasionally, and then working from home remotely.

Lauren

I was thinking about questions, of course preparation for this call. And I had also read an interview, or an article that was talking about how employees were being put into really uncomfortable situations because their managers know that they're at home, they know they're close to a computer, and managers are actually expecting employees to be responsive 24/7, and also expecting them to work technically, longer than work hours, because they know they're available.

Sass

That's a shame, if that's happening. It is, especially when you are new to the workforce, and you actually sort of put in that extra effort and drive anyway. So if you feel you've got someone sort of standing over you acting as a as a bit of a taskmaster, that's not actually going to get the best out of your, your teams.

I haven't come across that. What I have heard is a slight variation of that where people are working from home and by default, because the laptop is always there, you're answering emails at 9, 10pm in the evening, or like I was, sending emails at 6am this morning, because I woke up and I saw that Little red badge with the numbers. And that really sort of tapped into my OCD must reduce that mustn't have any notification badges at all.

So yeah, I've not come across organizations where they are expecting people. But it could be that it's an energy, almost, there's a sense that people feel I must work harder for my manager in order to achieve. And it's a personal thing to probably feel under pressure just to prove you are working. There's that sense of guilt when you step away from your desk and being by don't answer immediately. You know, I have to come back and explain why I wasn't there. And it's taking me 10 minutes to answer instant message. I love instant messaging in the workplace.

Lauren

Do you?

Sass

Yeah, I do. Because it does put that sort of pressure on you to answer instantaneous once I get past what's called Instant Messaging, right. But it does put that pressure on you. And I felt guilty. You know, my study is in the attic, so if I run downstairs to make a tea or coffee, and I come back upstairs, I'm always thinking, please don't let that there be an insta message.

Phil

That's so interesting, because we all wanted smartphones and connection. And obviously, I mean, social media has not helped with that kind of instant gratification and almost expectation of immediate exchange. But now we're putting into place ways of managing that because it's gone overboard way to go humans, you always have a way of ruining it, I mean, I have many apps on my phone that I've turned off the notifications.

We use instant messaging within our company. And I think there's pros and cons to it. We use it with clients and with our team because it's faster than email, which means it's less expensive for the client. However, there is an expectation of immediate replying. Lauren in particular is really good at replying quickly. But then sometimes I actually think I actually think does she think about that? Or does she want that to actually just be unread and dealt with? Rather than thinking about it for 24 hours.

Lauren

If slack could create something that was not an extension, but part of the program where I could schedule messages, that would save so much mental distress for me. Because for me, I worry that if I see a message and leave it on read, I've got so much also in my mind that I'm going to forget about it, and I'm going to drop the ball. So for me if something takes like less than two minutes, I just respond, because I feel like that's better than me adding another thing to my to do list of 1000.

But at the same time, Phil, you're right, it does sometimes send the wrong message to the client because it creates an expectation. And if I go to the dentist like I did yesterday, for an hour and a half, I'm kind of having a heart attack the whole time thinking about someone sending a message that obviously never happened it is all my anxious mind. But I'm thinking about oh god, someone's sent a responding to a brand identity we sent and they hate it and I'm not responding for two hours, everything's crumbling, the world's gonna end blah, blah, blah.

Phil

Yeah, I mean, this is the situation we're in, I guess Sass like, what are some of the other, I'd be curious to know, because you must deal with all different kinds of things in organizations. I also know that you just took on a number of projects obviously does. Don't tell us who your clients are, but and it doesn't have to be the challenges they're facing now. But I'd be curious to dig into the juicy goodness of the types of things that you're noticing, and the reasons that people are going Sass help.

Sass

Yeah, so change within an organization can mean a number of things. And I think sometimes change management can get a little bit of a bad rap because they associate it with meaning or restructure. And it isn't always that. It's a key part of having change management involved in when it comes to restructure, it's critical, but it isn't always that sometimes it's, you know, you're rolling out brand new technology or exciting products, and you need a change team to come in and help you adapt to what that means. But the biggest things that come out of change, regardless of whether it's a restructure, or a new product that a company is rolling out, is communication. Because we all here want to hear. So it doesn't matter how many messages sent, you know, they tend to come from the top down, so the board will release an announcement or they'll hold a town hall or they'll send out a blog.

But whenever someone is speaking, everyone in that room will hear the message ever so slightly differently. Because it comes down to what people are wondering about change, which is what's in it for me. So organizations always say people say that they don't understand what we're doing. And it's not that they're not articulating the vision, when it comes to the announcements that they make, it's that they haven't got down to that granular level where they're almost individually responding what that change means for that particular individual.

And that's where the fear kicks in, as well. And that's where people get change, averse and become really resistant to anything new happening in an organization because they don't understand what's in it for them, they tend to assume that the setbacks will far outweigh the benefits, and they go into overdrive. So communication is a big one that I get from companies all the time. And how do we sort of deal with this? You know, we have this great overarching strategy. But how do we make sure we get down to the individuals and make sure the information gets back up as well, because they hold announcements. And then you have that awkward moment where they say any questions, tumbleweed and everyone's panicking thinking, oh my god, they hated it. Everyone hates us, they hate what we've just had to say. And listen, you just need to allow people time to pause and reflect.

When I hold a coaching session, for example, I say to people, the magic doesn't happen in the session, always a few days later, because the penny drops something lands. And you have to do the same as change when you're making an announcement and have to allow people to absorb what they've heard, and then come and ask you questions. And they may not be the sort of person either, who feel confident enough to ask that question in a virtual room of 500 people sometimes. So communication is huge.

Team bonding is another big one. Because especially if there's a change that will impact the structure of the way the team works. And in certain fields and organizations, you'll have people who have worked together for years, they've been with that organization for decades and suddenly, there's the chance that these people are either going to be switching teams or leaving.

And that can then have an impact on staff morale. So morale is a really big one as well, communication and keeping up staff morale. And it really isn't easy at all, in this current climate. Because the sorts of things that you would do staff away days or workshops come together, let's train let's establish our values together as a team, which is a real good cohesive exercise to carry out. And it gives people that sense of okay, we've got the same thing in common here is much harder to do, virtually,

Lauren

You said something interesting about how when people receive big information from the top down, they ask what's in it for me? And I was curious to know, do you find that people generally want the same things at work? When they do answer the question? What's in it for me? Do most people want more responsibility? I have a feeling maybe not? What do you think?

Sass

So two point yes, in the very, very first instance, and I always relate it to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that very first base of the pyramid is safety. And that's what it comes down to if people think there's going to be a change, especially if it's a restructure, they start to think, okay, I need this job because I have to keep a roof over my head, I've got to put food on the table for my children, oh, my God, my kids are going to college. Like I said, in the first instance, people want the same thing. They want to know they're going to be safe. And they want to know that they've got a certain level of security. And then then it starts to change. As you sort of once you've dealt with that level, you can see where it starts to change between people. And some people are really passionate about changing the sort of nervous and excited at the same time. What does it mean, what new skill sets are required? And what's the training involved, then he gets some people that really go into it. And others say, well, do our customers want less. And again, it's that whole, putting things on hold that we don't we're not sure we're comfortable with this change. We're still not sure what it means for us. And they kind of, they'll just sort of stay in that pause moment without moving anywhere for quite some time. And it's hard when you're in change, trying to find that balance of giving people a chance to take it on board, but also keeping the project or initiative moving Forward successfully,

Phil

I feel like people get excited about changing either big or small when they have like a certain example or model to follow. When you think about all of the projects that you've worked on, is there one that you're really proud of when you think about where they started and where they finished? I'm asking this question intentionally, because I feel like when people hear an example of someone else succeeding or taking a risk and going, wow, that really paid off, it's inspiring. Even if it's a totally different industry, or something that's even not relatable, it's fun to hear about wins. And I wonder if you have one that comes to mind?

Sass

Yeah, I mean, loads. This is the joy of sort of working in this field and as a consultant and a freelancer because I get to experience going into companies helping to affect change, making it happen, and then you move to the next program of work. So actually lucky for me, they're always sort of these wins for me, because you get to put this into motion, and you see the results.

Yeah, there's a large company I worked with based out in New York, and they were making a massive change to their product strategy. And it boiled down to then once the strategy was in place, was the ways of working. So technologies, were going to have to change processes, methodologies, and we completely changed the structure of a team and trained them in sort of new projects, methodologies. And you know, these are people who had been with the organization, some of them 20 plus years really set in a very certain way of thinking, behaving, acting, doing, and taking these people and breathing life into them, giving them new energy, training them, getting them excited, not just about the products, but what it meant for their own personal development going forward.

And I think that's the thing to recognize is, yes, you want to retain talent, but you also are taking the risk that if you're training them up, and you're developing them, you may lose them. But you're saying that's okay, because we're here now, and we're doing this for you now. And we want you to stay, which is why we're developing you. But we know that this could take you to great places. And that excites us, as well, you know, we just put in a really supportive program. And this was, during the time when we were all still coming together. So I was heading out to New York, we were running these great workshops, and it was lots of fun. And it was just that energy that was in the room when people started to feel excited about the new skills, and how they could apply them and could see the future that was there. But the potential that was there for them within the organization that they love so much that they thought right at the beginning meant it was hopeless, and it's all coming to an end. It was in fact, the actual opposite. Such a feel good feeling. I always say that, you know, it doesn't matter how shiny your tools and processesare, if your people aren't on board, you're at far greater risk of failure. Because if they're not using them, then how are you going to get that out the door to your client base to your customer.

So when you see people really adapting and that growth mindset takes place and kicks in, you just think you've got this, this is awesome. You also need so much support from the top down as well. You need that sponsorship and buying from your senior leadership because it's their voice ultimately, that matters, not mine.

Lauren

Amazing. Now, I'm going to challenge you by asking for your thoughts on something that I had personally experienced. I used to work for an advertising agency, and I really hope no one who worked there is listening now because I'm about to talk shit about them. So the agency was great to work for because they made it very, very clear that work life balance was of high importance to them. So I remember when I was interviewing, the first thing they talked about was work life balance. When I applied to the job, it was all about work life balance. When I was working there, and I was on the training day, it was all about work life balance. And sure enough, I'd look around me at about 4:30pm and about three quarters of the room had of the office had emptied because of work today.

But at the same time, I felt like the value of work life balance was at conflict with the work that the agency was supposed to do. Because when you had big clients and you're telling people that work life balance was really important and billable hours to the client were really important, people were basically just filling up their timesheets with meaningless meetings, pointless work, and trying to burn up hours so the clients could be billed, but not necessarily being as efficient as possible as innovative as possible. And honestly, just the work was constantly mediocre and clients would drop all the time. Even if they signed on a client for like a year. It was pretty rare that a client would stay for more than two years because they'd find another agency that was about the same and costs but far more innovative. So how do you think a company could communicate high standards of innovation when creativity is not something that can happen between standard work hours, but also balance, like work life?How can you do it?

Sass

You just said it, you just said the word that I was going to use. If it comes down to values that like a code of ethics, you know, and it's sort of that that beacon that sort of says, you know, this is what we stand for. This is who we are, and, you know, allows boundaries. So, for me it would be, you know, what was that company's code of ethics? What were their values? And so it sounds like possibly the code of ethics was they found you, you know, that time out of the office, rather than achieving what they needed to for their clients. But yeah, it really is what you stand for and having a defined purpose.

Lauren

How can you encourage work life balance as a company at the same time as a commitment to excellence? Is that even possible?

Sass

Yes, I think it is. So for example, if one of your values is creativity, and autonomy, what you're saying is you believe in the creative output of the organization, and you're going to work to this standard of creativity to get out the door, what you need for your client. But here's the autonomy. This is you know, we're going to breathe life into you, you do manage yourself, and you're responsible for your workload. And for understanding balance could be another value. for example. I think, if you have really good values in place, it's sort of like a governance structure for an organization because you can look at that and saying, what are we serving? What are we meeting? And what are we not meeting and that to me is sort of the backbone for many organizations, having a strong sense of values, and defining what your purpose is. So you could be that part of your purpose is a work life balance. But your values also help you dictate how you create that. And that's for the leaders to do within an organization as well. Work life balance, great, but here's what that actually means. And break that down to people understand, so that they don't skip off at 3pm every day, and that they're not meeting the requirements and needs of their customers, and therefore not retaining the people, the customers that they want to keep.

Phil

It makes me think of like, parents, it's kind of the same thing. Leaders in an organization play a similar role to like parents growing up raising kids. In a way I know, it's not the same thing. But it's,

Lauren

Well, it kinda is, though.

Phil

Yeah. And that's like the analogy I'm using, because I haven't worked in a corporate structure and environment. So I tend, until this conversation, I've always kind of thought, like, oh, taking all this time and energy to like, set a mission statement and corporate values does anyone actually pay attention to that is what I've always kind of defaulted into thinking, I'm like this little rebel entrepreneur on the, you know, on this, on the sidelines doing, doing something totally different. I

Lauren

I do whatever I want. Yeah,

Phil

Until tell my mom bends down on her knees and looks at me and goes, that's the look, people need. Our podcast listeners can't see what I'm doing. With tilt gdra never tilt her head. And just, and that means, like, cut out the bad behavior. And, yeah, so it's kind of similar. And now I'm rethinking my assumption on this. And I think it's interesting.

Sass

So it's so true to your point, you know, when you think about parent/child relationships, so a good parent will instill some rules, you have to be in bed by 10pm. And you have to get up at this time in order to get to school on time. But at the same time, they sort of breathe life into you, and allow you to make some mistakes along the way, they've kind of, you know, good parent kind of cuts you loose to the point, so that you can sort of feel your own way and and they're there to kind of rein you back in, when you cross over whatever those boundaries are. And that's what values are, they're the boundaries, you know, where you can go to and, and come back again, and you stay within these sort of these pockets of this is what we stand for. And we don't cross that line. Otherwise, we are threatening the quality and the quality of the organization that we work for. The excellence that this company says that they stand for if we cross the line of those values, and we're no longer who we say we are.

And you know, I do quite a lot of work in phase, something that I do a lot with my coaching clients, the very first step I take is, you know, who are you and what do you stand for? And we always carry out a little bit of a values exercise, and we all have them, they're also an integral part of who we are. And it's often I always say, it's a feeling we all have them within, but especially when you're coaching and I do this also with my consultancy work, I work to understand what value a team holds what their team structure and identities is. Once you start articulating, it really starts to make a difference. And sometimes you can't so you know, there are some exercises. A lot of people say what are your values and people's? I don't know, I don't have any, or they panic thinking, oh my god, I didn't have any values. You do have values. It's a feeling. It's that gut feeling when something's right or wrong, or healthy or unhealthy for you. And I find by working with clients to help them verbalize what they It really starts to bring it to the fore. And it's something that can start to unify them, you know, and ask themselves, how are these values being served? And you didn't, you know, you're going to override them from override my values every now and then. And it's just the case of not punishing yourself for that. But, you know, saying, okay, recognizing that, going forward, when it happens, again, start asking yourself the question, what's healthy? What's unhealthy? For me? Is this right or wrong for the situation that I'm in?

Sass

Well, how many values should an individual have for themselves? Because they're kind of like a magic number, you've found me? How many do you want? There's no magic number. No, when I do an exercise with someone, we do sort of condense it down to a area top 10. But that doesn't mean that's where it stops. And I encourage people to frequently assess their values, because life happens, and things changes, events in our life will shape who we are, what we think how we feel. So to sort of look at your values on a yearly basis, there's quite a good exercise to do to see where you are today.

And I try to get beyond the obvious stuff. So people talk about love, and relationships and family. And, you know, there are obvious things that are always going to be important to us. And I tried to tap into the stuff that resides in you deeper down, that you may not think to articulate ordinarily, and get people to understand how that works for them in a situation.

You know, we're multifaceted human beings, aren't we? There isn't just one side of us, you bring a different side team to work bring a different side to your personal life or with relationships. So quite often, we'll look at the two key ones, which is personal life and working life, what are the values that are important to you to bring to your day to day work? And what are the values that are important to you, as a person and within your personal life and your social relationships.

But there's no magic number, but I do try to distill it to about 10, when we're doing an exercise just because that visual helps people, you know, when prioritize them, and your top three, those are the things that you really will aim to live by, as a rule of thumb.

Lauren

So could you give a few examples of some values that maybe aren't the obvious ones, like, I value surrounding myself with honest people? How specific should those values be?

Sass

It's really down to the individual. And I do it in a number of ways. If I'm working with someone in person, we've got cards that will have words on, we'll just play sort of like a scenarios exercise. Otherwise, it's through conversation, I’ll ask people setting questions and what I hear, I'll say, so what I'm hearing is that integrity is important to you, or growth, because you talk about learning more about the world and developing yourself. I'm an eternal learner, I'm always signing up to a course you know, and if I don't have that opportunity to learn something new that's either relevant to my job or something I feel that's going to give me joy, I start to get a little bit, okay, why can't I do this? And I'll look for the next thing. So for me growth, really, really important.

Integrity, recognition, I tell clients, I want recognition. And that's not because they want anyone to be on their knees at their feet, saying you're amazing. I work really hard. And I want people to recognize how hard I've worked. And this is where I've reached in my career or whatever goal it is they're trying to meet. Respected authority is another one that's come up, which always sounds weird.

Lauren

That’s Phil’s value. No kidding.

Phil

I don't think so. I think my value is freedom. Something related.

Lauren

Definitely

Phil

That's a good way to kind of round off our conversation. That was kind of fun, because the first value that came to mind, for me was freedom. The I hate when Lauren tells me what to do when to do it. I like that. I like not home brew. I like being told what to do fine. I'm modifying it.

Lauren

I'm giving you the Sue Pallen look right now. Because you're always like, you always tell me, I don't know what to do. I need you to put this in my calendar. And now I’m being publicly scorned for it.

Phil

I'm retracting my statement. Amen. I like being told what to do. But I don't like being told when to do it. Lauren always has to kind of do this delicate dance. She did it yesterday. She's she goes, do you have plans tomorrow? And then I just came up with something because I just don't want to have to sit down and work.

Lauren

Well, it's gonna be the first sunny day here in six days. So yeah, I have plans.

Phil

I know. I know. But then I'm fine after a bit now. I'm like, it's a project. I'm excited to start. Yeah, but I just don't yeah, the freedom thing for me is my value. Lauren what's your value that comes to mind?

Lauren

I think integrity for me is big one. If I know that someone has been dishonest or has been immoral, I don't want them in my life. Even if they didn't do it to me, I cannot have that person and my circle. I think that a lot of times people confuse making mistakes with a lack of integrity or excellence. But I think people make mistakes all the time. And mistakes are normal, and they're part of being human. But when you lie to cover up that mistake, that's when I get really upset.

Sass

Yeah, I'm the same. I need transparency. I'd say that's one of my values, transparency, because when you realize that something that hasn't been said and withheld deliberately, you just think that's no. I am not a fan of that at all. I like to do what I want to do when I want to do it. So there's a little bit of Phil's there with.

Lauren

Yeah, I could never, ever go back to an office, I always butted heads with the people who managed me because it would really bother me when I would be told to do something because it like appeased a person for political reasons or because it's just part of the way the company wants it instead of like coming up with the best solution for that particular situation. So I'm on autonomy train as well.

Sass

We are all looking to live that nomadic lifestyle. That's good.

Phil

Yes. It's interesting, though, because I think it's easier in a smaller company, like the company of ours is Lauren and me plus our, you know, our trusted creatives that many, almost all of them have been with us for a significant amount of time, almost five years plus. Which I guess is a good sign that people want to stick around. But it's easier to create a culture with less personalities, and this is even more so the bigger the company gets, or even smaller companies that are scaling or big corporations has to vocalize and communicate and be on the same page. We I think, kind of take it for granted, because it's Lauren and me. We've been friends, we know each other well. But how true is it that you need to speak this stuff out for it to actually manifest?

Sass

Maybe, right? Yeah, absolutely. Right. And again, that comes back to our very first point about what's the thing that comes up and change. It's communication. That's so key, and the difficulties of the current climate because how large organizations deal with that is once a year, they'd be this grand get together, everyone gets to meet up and have a great time. And that's been taken away from people at the moment. So the challenges ahead are, are tough. There's a combination of different things that are going on there, I think. But I'd like to think going forward, there really will be a new hybrid movement that takes place in the workspace, and people will be able to find something that works for them rather than being told what to do.

Phil

Optimism. That's another value of Sass. We're gonna borrow it to. We're optimistic around here just like you. Sass, what a fun little conversation. Thanks for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy. This has gotten me thinking about things. And I think we've learned a lot from you. It's been awesome.

Sass

And thank you so much. I've had a lot of fun as always, so good to see you both.

Phil

Thank you again, for hanging out with us right here.

Lauren

You're the best. Thank you.