116. How do you be a nice boss? (f. Winn Claybaugh)
Have you ever wondered what it takes to be a kind but effective leader? 🙌 In this episode of Brand Therapy, hosts Phil and Lauren go straight to the source with our guest Winn Claybaugh. As Dean of Paul Mitchell Schools, Winn has mastered the artful balance of being a kind boss while getting sh*t done. You'll love hearing Winn's fresh perspective on mistakes, his favorite leadership advice, and tips for exercising leadership throughout this career. Winn is a treasure trove of wisdom, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode.
Episode transcription
Phil
Hello, welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is a podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brands. We’re happy you are here, we love when you're here when you join us, particularly when we have exciting guests, and today is no exception. I'm going to start by saying that this is someone that I've wanted to have a conversation with on this podcast for a really long time. Lauren and I talk often, don't we about corporate culture, about being nice in business, but also walking that fine line between being nice and being firm and being productive. I don't really like to think about that as much as Lauren because I just kind of operate in business. However, I get to play the good cop, and you usually have to play the bad cop.
Lauren
Okay, to clarify, I don't like being a bad cop. I don't like it. But someone's gotta do it or maybe do it. Today, we might learn that someone doesn't have to be a bad cop. I don't know, our guests will tell us.
Phil
I think it's time to learn our guests are one of my favorite human beings on this planet. Winn Claybaugh you are here, owner and Dean of Paul Mitchell Schools. And I'm just so happy you're here. Welcome to Brand Therapy.
Winn
Thank you very, very much. It's about time you invited me cuz Lord knows I've invited you to my network and my podcasts and my audiences on many occasions. So it's nice to be on the receiving end of this.
Phil
Here's what I'll say about what wins it well, it is a podcast. Now you're doing this even before podcasts were even a thing. But it was a means in which you were able to share your message with your community. And Winn, when I did that with you, that was the first big podcast interview I did where I had people messaging me on social media after I heard your talk when I heard your talk. I was recently getting my haircut somewhere, and I noticed I saw Paul Mitchell products, and it was someone who had gone to the academy and knew you and had listened to our episode, a total stranger. Super cool, like full circle moments. And we've had a few of those. We have some friends in common and we've done amazing work together. I usually say this at the end, but I'm gonna say at the beginning, your project is on our website. Well, we're so excited to talk with you about this. Because I always say to Lauren, and I'm like, if you need an example of someone who's nice and firm and business, Winn Claybaugh and now you're here to discuss this with us.
Winn
It's really a pleasure.
Lauren
So to kick things off, Winn, why do you think it's important to be nice in business?
Winn
Well, first of all, it's good business. You know, there's so many myths about what it means to be nice and what it doesn't mean to be nice. People think that if you're nice, that means that you're a doormat that you have to be mean and aggressive for people to take you seriously. And I just believe that that certainly is not true. I absolutely believe absolutely, that the culture and you keep on mentioning that word culture, I believe that the culture of a business and it doesn't matter what you're selling, the culture of a business needs to be one that is inclusive. And inclusivity means that you're nice, and that doesn't happen by accident. So you better believe that there has to be belief systems and systems and practices within that company within that business that makes sure that that happens.
Lauren
Was there ever a lightbulb moment for you where I should maybe consider being or making like being a nice part of how I do business? Or have you always just been a really kind of warm person?
Winn
Well, first of all, my parents raised me the right way. And I think if a lot of people modeled their business culture, their business strategy, the way their parents taught them, or the golden rule, or whatever, they would, I believe be more successful. But that that light bulb moment for me came when you make a mistake, you know, that's usually how we learn. The best is when we screw up and we fall down and then we get back up and a good mentor of mine said that we should always go in asking. He said go in asking and and oftentimes what we want to do is we want to go in assuming that we have all the information and every time that I've done that, so I hear a second hand or third hand that that so and so, team member of mine made a mistake and they said or did the wrong thing and I assume that what I have heard is the full truth and so I go in attacking and blaming and criticizing. When really I should have gone in asking. Had I gone in asking Hey, tell me about the situation. I heard something. Tell me about this situation. Because when I don't go in asking I then have to backpedal and because what I heard was not the full truth. There's always 10 sides to every story. And now I'm having to apologize and make up for the fact that had I just gone in asking things would have gone much, much better for me.
Lauren
Really interesting. This wasn't part of our prepared questions before, but you brought up something really interesting, which are mistakes. Now Phil and I are in obviously, the client service business, as are you with your students. And when you are doing business that's basically selling an experience, it feels like the stakes are a bit higher if a mistake is made that affects your client. So what is your advice other than asking why a mistake happened or asking what the situation was, what is your advice for basically course correcting and ensuring that that mistake doesn't repeat itself in the future among your team?
Winn
It's a great question. First of all, create a culture where making a mistake is not fatal. I heard that story. I don't know if it's true or not, but you know, the man that made a mistake and cost the company $100,000. And so he goes into the boss, and I guess you want my resignation? And the boss said, Are you kidding? It just cost me $100,000 to train you, you're not going anywhere. Meaning we're going to make our mistakes. But so create a culture where making the mistake is not fatal. Now within my company, there are things that are fatal. Stealing is fatal. You could lose your job, if you steal from me, r\But making a mistake, because you were trying to push the boundaries, and you were trying to take some risks and try something new to please the customer, or whatever that looks like we're gonna make our mistakes. So create that culture where failure is not fatal. But then also make it part of your culture that we celebrate those failures, so to speak. You know, we always celebrate the victories, you know, somebody hits a quota and somebody has a big sale and we celebrate that, well, let's start celebrating the mistakes that we make. So one of our belief systems within my organization, and again, we're a culture of training, cosmetologist and barbers and skin therapists, one of our cultural beliefs is that we don't make mistakes, we make discoveries. And I love telling the story of when I watched it happen where one of my students attending my skin school was practicing doing an eyebrow wax and, and she ripped it off. And all of a sudden, the entire eyebrow gone, gone gone. And the learning leader who watched this happen said to the student, why, what a great discovery you just made. Now she'll never do that again. Right? I doubt that that customer is going to come back to my school. But it was a discovery that she made and we learn from those discoveries.
Phil
That's such a good example of like framing actually a branding. That's branding. So you're actually rebranding a mistake as a discovery.
lauren
And it's interesting, cool. I feel like I learn more from when I screw up then when I do something, right. Those are those types of memories that stick with you. And they're the ones that you really react to, you don't want to prevent them from happening, but they're more present in your brain.
Winn
Lessons of life, right? Like who better to counsel an alcoholic than a recovering alcoholic? Who better to have a soft place in their heart for abused children than someone who's been there. So we go through our life discoveries, so to speak, because they give us insight. They allow us to go deeper in our relationships with people, right, it helps us connect with people. And I think that that's what's missing, not only in business, but in life in general, is we're missing that connection with people, you know. Social media has made it I mean, it's improved, in terms of how we market ourselves and business, but in terms of relationships, you know, social media has destroyed that a lot. We need connections with people.
Phil
I love listening and learning from leaders in similar industries, but also different industries and worlds. And one of the things I think a lot about when I'm listening or talking to you, is our mutual friend, Dean Banowetz was actually the one that introduced me to you. I think about this quote, probably almost every day he had said to me once, at the end of the day, we all serve, we all serve someone else. So whether it's Dean styling a celebrity's hair, whether it's you onstage at your summit, you know, speaking to your school owners or me on stage at your summit, which happened almost exactly one year ago, by the way, we all serve at the end of the day, when I'm curious to get your perspective. We're talking about being nice. I think ego plays a role in some of this in terms of those mistakes people make or things that get in the way. Can you talk a little bit about ego when it comes to leadership and doing the right thing?
Winn
Absolutely. I love talking about this more than any other topic. And that is the idea of leadership. And as much as many businesses and companies have upgraded and changed the way they do business nowadays, again, especially because of social media and marketing and, and all the other wonderful resources that are available to us, so we're all improving how we do business. And yet a lot of leaders are still living and leading by what I call an old school style of leadership.
Old school leadership is that you dictate, you control, you think it's your job to police people, I'm going to catch them doing something wrong. Like you can work for a company for 10 years and show up to work on time every single day. And nobody says anything about it. And then all of a sudden, one day you show up late what happens? Aha, now all of a sudden, you get recognition, but it's for the wrong behavior. And we all believe that what you focus on starts to grow.
And so a lot of leaders will try to lead by that. A good mentor of mine said that leadership that you said earlier, Phil is about having a servant's heart. Right. And so I've gotten into the habit of asking my team members, hey, what can I do for you today? How can I serve you today? And some of them are surprised like, wait a minute, the boss is asking me, they're asking me what he can do for me. Now, you know, most of them are used to that and they turn around and they practice that same style of leadership, with the people that they work with. Hey, what can I do for you today? How can I serve you today? Oh, my gosh, what a great question. When a leader becomes vulnerable, like that, and available, and approachable, that is so so attractive.
And by the way, the meaning of the word attractive means things come to you. Meaning when you are attractive, you won't have to go looking for loyal, hard working team members, they will find you. You won't have to go looking for loyal customers that want to spend a lot of money with your company with your business, they will find you. But what we have to work on as leaders is our attractiveness. And by the way, what makes you attractive is not your impeccable accounting system. That's not what makes you attractive.
Lauren
Great. Now, I imagine that you've probably picked up some hiring practices over the years and kind of indicators of things you look at when hiring someone. Now there's a quote by Lori Greiner on Shark Tank, and she says, hire for character train for skill. For someone like me, who tends to be a little bit more robotic, that quote makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't understand it. So I was just wondering, do you have a perspective on hiring or kind of best practices you follow?
Winn
Absolutely? Well, first of all, what are they saying you hire slow, and then you fire fast. And somebody also said, you know, don't fault me on who I hire, fault me on who I don't fire. And so, you know, that process of interviewing people, and it's such a good practice to have multiple people, interview the candidates, and you have them come back on several different occasions, and maybe they can shadow and work within the organization within the company before you actually give them the job.
So there's all kinds of best practices for that. But yeah, I agree that we hire for attitude. Now again, I'm in the hair industry. And I've made that mistake where you hire a superstar hairdresser right there. They're famous, they have a huge following, a huge clientele, a lot of press. And so you hire them, you're you're a little bit starstruck. And so you hire that person without considering their attitude. Because you can train skill, I can train somebody how to cut and color, beautiful hair. But I want people who are just nice, and I used to have this big long list of things that I would look for in hiring somebody. I used to say, Oh, I want them to have these skills, these certifications, this job experience. Well, I found people who had all of those things on their resume, but they were a little bit bitter. I can't work with that, you know, if they're a little bit bitter now before you hire them, right? And you don't take that into consideration. Why cuz their resume is so fabulous, right? You're not taking into consideration their attitude? And are they nice to people? Are they engaging with people? If they're already that way before you hire them, can you imagine what that's going to turn into? And you know what, you can't work with people like that. And anytime you've been through this when you fired somebody, it's like the rest of the team members are all thinking, well, gosh, what took you so long Winn. We knew that that person did not fit into our culture, we knew they needed to go a long time ago Winn, what took you so long?
Lauren
Now, what's something that you've learned in business that you wish you had known, decades ago?
Winn
Just the value of the people that I'm surrounded by, right? Because I used to believe that if I'm going to be successful, then I have to be the best at everything. I have to be the smartest person in my organization. You know what, if you're the smartest, most talented person in your organization, I feel sorry for you. Because that means that you're now going to be forced to work 12 hour days, six days a week, I don't need to be the smartest person. I don't, I don't need to be the prettiest person. And there was a time that I thought that I had to be the smartest person, I don't have to be the most talented person. What I do need to be though, is I need to be the most positive person. If I'm the most positive person, when I walk into a room, Oh, my gosh, the power that I have. Now, all of a sudden, I'm engaging people. And a lot of people are really good, or a lot of companies and bosses are really good at engaging their people with their time, meaning they show up from nine to five. And they show up for one thing, and one thing only, and that is to receive what a paycheck. Right? That's, that's the only reason why I'm here, I gotta pay the bills. That's the only reason why I'm here. You've engaged me from nine to five, but they haven't engaged them with their creativity with their passions. And oftentimes, when people aren't engaged, what do we want to do we want to fire them.
You can't fire your way into building a better team of people. And so to answer that question with my very long answer, what I know today, and what I wished I would have discovered 38 years ago, when I first got into business was the value of my team. I don't have to be the smartest person. I do have to be a very, very good leader that's engaging, that shows a lot of love and gratitude for my people. And I can talk more about what that leadership and that culture style needs to look like. And once I do that, and that's what I'm the best at, then you better believe I'm going to attract the smartest, most talented people. They all want to work with me. And I don't have much turnover. people stay with me for 30 plus years, because I'm so good at making sure that they feel valued and that they feel safe, and that they belong within my organization.
Lauren
Can I work for you? Let's leave Phil at PPC and join Winn.
Phil
I know I mean, what's really cool too and unique about your position when you've got a lot of people that you're inspiring and leading, but you're also in such close contact with school owners. Some of them obviously, in big cities, some of them in smaller towns, some of these people are navigating in smaller, almost like ecosystems. I remember getting to meet so many of the school owners at the summit. And it's because I'm in a big city. And I think what I'm getting out here is that the principles that you're outlining are relevant at every level and size of business. One of the things I love about you and I love about a small group of people, whether they be clients or friends, or sometimes both, people that are in constant pursuit of getting better and being positive. All of the things we've talked about setting aside ego, it doesn't matter how big the business is, it could be someone just starting out, it could be someone who's famous on television, it's the same game. It's exactly the same. I think people think at these high high levels of business, either wealth or fame, that things change. They don't, it's exactly the same
Winn
No. Who I was with one vocation now who I am today, people say, well, gosh, if I had 1000s of employees and was making millions of dollars, then I would become that type of person. Then I would be a good boss, then I would be generous, right? No, if you're not generous now with one employee, if you're not generous now just barely being able to pay your own bills, it's not like you're going to become this incredible, fabulous person once all those other things come to pass for you.
Phil
What are you constantly trying to get better at? How are you self improving, I'm just curious to know,
Lauren
Good question Phil.
Winn
I'll get emotional with this one.Being a dad, I have an eight year old daughter, and I just want to be a really, really good dad. But what I'm finding is as I am a really good dad, that makes me a better boss that makes me a better human being that makes me a better son. That makes me a better husband. It makes me better in every area of my life. Because you know what my eight year old daughter is teaching you first of all, she doesn't care if I'm famous. She doesn't care if I make millions of dollars. Right? You know, she doesn't care that I interviewed Marie Osmond yesterday. She doesn't care about any of those things, right. She's all about face to face, having that connection. And so what I've learned from trying to be a really good dad is about being present. But I know that there are some bosses that absolutely need to learn how to be present.
I've got my cell phone right here. I'm sure you all have your cell phone right there. You could grab it right now. everybody listening to your cell phone is right there within reach. Right? My daughter said it to me one time Hey, Daddy, you love your cell phone more than you love me? Oh, dagger, dagger to my heart. But you know what, how many of my employees have thought that? Right? How many of my employees who are giving their best in their, whatever they're contributing to my company? How many of them have thought the same thing? Well, you care more about your cell phone right now than you care about me. You could be Mother Teresa of bosses. But if you're on your phone all the time with your people, they think that you're a jerk, and you need to own people's perception of you.
Lauren
Now, you're obviously someone who does a lot of self reflection. I can just tell you, you know who you are. Are there any methods or recommendations you have for people who want to do more self reflection, like do you journal? Do you go on long walks? Do you take inventory of your week? What does that look like?
Winn
Well, I learned from Tony Robbins years ago that we are motivated through inspiration or desperation. And many, many years ago, my drive for self improvement, self awareness was out of pure desperation. Happiness does not come naturally to me. And so it was something that I well to this day still have to constantly constantly work out. And so but that I formed good habits out of desperation, I formed good habits of always, always engaging with mentors. And, and now I do it, because I want to be inspired, it's not so much that I'm desperate that I'm reaching out to mentors, it's because it's a good habit that I have that on a daily regular basis, I'm always listening to the voices of my mentors. And nowadays, by the way, I was doing this back when I was popping in eight tracks, you know, into listening to my favorite motivational speaker. And then it was cassette tapes. And then CDs. I mean, nowadays, there's so many resources, it's so easy. I'm, if I'm sitting at my computer, sometimes it can be eight hours a day, you better believe that during those eight hours, while I'm responding to emails, I'm also listening to TED Talks, right? You know, one of my favorites is to go to places because in 20 minutes or less, I'm going to hear the best of the best information from the most famous successful people on the planet. And that's just one resource that I can go to. And so it's a good habit that I have that I'm always always listening to the voices of heroes and mentors and leaders. And people think, well, I just go to one motivational seminar a year and that's all that I need. That would be like going to yoga one time.
Lauren
So funny. Now, Phil, has you ever taken the test strengthsfinder before? We heard of it? It's kind of like Myers Briggs.
Winn
Oh yeah. I've never taken it, but I absolutely have heard of it.
Lauren
Awesome. So Phil's number one, strength is woo. So it's winning people over and you know, making connections we can all see, we all know, it's definitely well, and for me was like, probably up near the bottom, which is so funny. Because Phil and I are very complimentary. Phil has told me that when he meets people, he kind of sees them as a nut that he's going to be finding out how to crack and how to connect with. So I was wondering for people like me who don't really think in a woo type way. Do you have any advice on like, how to build a connection with someone who maybe isn't so outwardly nice or approachable?
Winn
Yeah, yeah. First of all, build a bridge and get over it. The fact that you acknowledge that, you know, the fact that you acknowledge that maybe that's something that you need to work on, where you find a way to woo people or whatever the terminology is that you're using here. You know, because I sort of said it a little bit earlier that we need to own people's perception of us, right. And some people have this attitude. I don't really care what people think about me. And I'm like, ah, yes, you do, right. Unless you're sitting at home in your underwear as a telemarketer, right, where you don't have to face people, people don't see you and they don't see what your facial expressions are and the energy that you bring and, and how you treat them. Right. We need to own what people think and feel about us. And I've made that a top priority. I had outlined five reasons why people might think that I'm a jerk, right? By the way, one of them is that I have to have fun. I need to have fun at work. And I can't just assume that I'm having fun or that the people around me are having fun. It has to be built within the system, that people come to work every single day in my organization in my 100 plus locations, and that they're gonna have fun somehow that day, they're going to have fun. I can't assume it's going to happen. I have to make sure that it happens and see if they assume that I'm not a fun guy. They think that I'm a jerk, I need to own that perception.
Phil
It's very insightful.
Lauren
I'm all fired up.
Phil
I learn something new every time I talk to when and here's another thing that I'll say if to round off this conversation that Winn is one of those people that I'm so happy to have in my circle, we text and we catch up every so often. You have introduced us to amazing people. And I'd be remiss if I didn't name one of them, Kathy Buckley, the pleasure of branding fairly recently, her project is on our new website. And I just, I mean, she's just one of those people that's just positive. And I really, truly am humbled to be in the smallest, even little touch points of such incredible people. So thank you. Which by the way, my mom almost cried when she met you a year ago. She was so excited to meet Winn Claybaugh now Lauren, you've met Winn Claybaugh face to face. Virtually Yes. Winn thank you so much for being on Brand Therapy and for taking time to chat with us today. I think what you've shared has been so incredibly inspirational for pretty much anyone that gets to listen to just a few words of what you have to say. I'm fired up, Lauren's fired up, the listeners fired up. And what's so cool is that, you know, could be a student, could be someone just getting started. It could be someone with 10 businesses. I think these are all really important reminders on things to revisit and mindset and perception. So thank you.
Winn
It was a pleasure. It really is a pleasure.
Lauren
I'm gonna go load up TED Talks now. I gotta start my self development journey.
Phil
Thank you so much Winn for being with us on Brand Therapy.
Winn
It is a pleasure. Thanks, you guys.
