118. How do you connect with a young audience? (f. Katie Greer)
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Do you wish your brand could connect with a younger audience, but aren't quite sure how? 👶 In this dynamic episode, hosts Phil and Lauren meet with internet safety sensation (and former client) Katie Greer for a 411 on all things youth. From understanding teens expectations to learning about what's cool on TikTok, you're going to love this fast-moving conversation about connecting with kids these days!
Episode transcription
Phil
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. And oh boy, it's fun one is just the two of us, but it's a lot more fun when we have someone in the mix and not just someone. This is a special, someone who we've had the privilege of branding and working with and giggling with, because she's a riot. She's a lot of fun. And Katie Greer is, I think one of our greatest client projects on our website, if I might say so. When you look at a breakout, and then you know her and you meet her and you see her you're like, yes, very proud of it. And so happy that you're here joining us on Brand Therapy.
Katie
You have no idea I was just talking to Lauren, before you got on the call about how this is the highlight of maybe my 2020. I miss you guys. I want to say that my website is terrible just so I can have you redo it again. But I'm in love with it and that won't happen. But I miss talking with you guys, gossiping with you guys, learning from you guys. I am so my husband's like what a nerd get a life. I'm like, I'm excited. This is my life.
Phil
Oh, this is fun. And I would love to take credit for most things that go well, but it was actually Lauren's idea, you know who we need to talk to on the podcast, Katie. Lauren, do you want to do the honors of saying why we thought that Katie would be perfect?
Lauren
Well, first of all, literally any excuse I have to talk with Katie, I'll take it. Aside from that, Katie is an expert in Internet safety. And Katie's job is to work with schools and kids across North America and parents and teach them about how to use the internet in a very responsible and self aware way. Now we actually were thinking about you, Katie, with that documentary, the social dilemma. Full disclosure. I haven't watched it, because I know that once I watch it, it's going to be burned into my brain for the rest of eternity that there's going to be no looking back.
Phil
There's gonna be all these new rules like rules. I'm not using my phone on Mondays and Thursdays from this time to this time, and you should do it too Phil.
Lauren
I already, don't have slack on my phone. I don't have email on my phone. I wish I could not have Instagram on my phone. But just with client commitments, it can't happen. And it's better for me to be snooping around for my own account than a client's account. So it's got to stay on there. But I'm nervous. So anyway, first of all, I maybe we should start things off. Have you seen that documentary?
Katie
I've seen a documentary, it was a bit much like, Look, I mean, there were some really important points in it talking about social engineering and how like, we are literally just being sucked into this vortex that is information collection, but it was also a bit alarmist. So I always hate that perspective. When people are like, you're gonna die, you're gonna be a terrible person, your head's gonna explode, and you're all screwed up for the rest of your life. I mean, it was it was a lot.
But there are some important points in there that I feel like, if we could bullet or highlight some things from that documentary, I think everyone should know. By the way, it's kind of stuff we know anyway, that we all just say, okay, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.
Lauren
So the main reason we wanted to have you on this podcast is to talk about how to connect with the young audience. My first question for you is, have you always gotten along with kids, or is it something that just comes naturally to you? Yeah, that are that you've had to learn?
Katie
I mean, yeah, I'm so mature. Not that all kids are immature, but I have never been, as you guys very well know, I've never been the adult in the room. And one other thing, and I will say this, and I've been thinking about this forever, how I couldn't wait to talk about like, what is it and you can't fake it. I've seen so many of these presentations or so many platforms, people going on tik tok to be, hey, kids, let me teach you how to do this. And you're like, God, you know, I feel these kids right now, are in such a juxtaposition, right? Because we all with social media are faced with so much perfection. And so many things that are not authentic and beautiful and luxurious and perfect and rich, everything perfect and wonderful, that I feel these kids while they're fascinated and sucked into it are craving authenticity.
This is so cheesy to say, but, I feel like just being my goofy ass self, or my truly honest self, even standing up in front of a group of 700 high schoolers and saying I literally have no idea what to talk to all about right now. We did this one thing on sexting once and I was like, I don't know if I have this right or wrong. I know, I'm an expert that your school paid money to come in here, but, I don't really know if I'm talking to you the right way about this stuff. Because I'm not a teenager, I didn't have this shit when I was younger, so I never went through it. And I could read books about it. I could read articles about it, but nothing will tell me more than you guys will.
So I feel that authenticity is a must when you're talking to kids or trying to connect, even if I feel like one of my greatest tools is being, I don't know, I have no idea, I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know what advice to give you. But, what, I don't know, you tell me you guys are in this right now. Tell me how can I talk about sexting better? or How can I talk about like perception versus reality better? or How can I make you feel better when you're constantly bombarded with these, gorgeous influencers? And you sit there at the end of the day and say shit like, I am gross, I feel terrible about myself, I don't work out like they do, I don't have a life like they do. Like, how can I make you feel better about that? Let's talk about it.
So I feel like that's been my key to success with talking to these kids. Being vulnerable, myself not coming in there being like, let me tell you about something. Because really, when it comes down to it, like I don't know shit about shit when it's talking about what these kids are dealing with every single day in their life. So listening has formed so much of what I can talk about whether it's to adults, or to kids down the line.
Phil
So even before we go further, I think we need to unpack that a little more, because you do it intuitively, I wouldn't say effortlessly, but I think it's your gift. It's one of the parts of your ability to do that. So let's unpack that further, because you do it so well. And it is key to how you do your job. Well. But how does someone do that? How does, you said listen, and I think that's probably the main thing. But can you unpack that a little bit more for someone who asks, how do I do that? How do I be vulnerable? And how do I connect with a young person? You just described it so well, can you take us into that kind of thought process?
Lauren
And how do you say I don't know when someone's hired you to know? Yeah, as well. That's what would go through my mind as I feel like I was letting someone down if I showed vulnerability.
Katie
So I think that was learned. Honestly, I actually can point you to the minute I learned this. I went to a school, I'm super type A, so like, my presentations are all planned out. And I have these PowerPoints that you guys have seen. And I just like to have a plan because you know, I need to have a plan. I need to know where I'm going. Because I don't like to let people down and I'm an overachiever. So if you tell me I have 30 minutes, I want 45 prepare to get no nonsense. So that being said, I went to a school in Branson, California, I'll never forgot this, and they said you have the afternoon just to hang out with these kids. I didn't want to turn into that person who's trying to sit here and pretend I'm a high school student, I'm a 35 year old woman. And that's what bothers me so much. I've seen so many of these things be done when people are trying to talk ‘at’ these kids. That's the big one, talking ‘at’ instead of talking with or learning from. If that's my goal to go and school you on these top 10 things, I've already lost. Because I'm not here to talk at you, I need to gain your respect by letting you know that I'm here to learn and that I don't know stuff. But that moment really came when I thought, this is not me having an afternoon free where I just hang out with a bunch of high schoolers like, Oh my god, what am I gonna talk like, what am I gonna do? I need to plan out a plan. And they all came to hang out. So I said what do you want to do? You know, I talked to you guys this morning, I had the opportunity, so challenge me, I love a good debate. Tell me I was wrong. Tell me that I didn't talk about something. I want to get better. I want to be better. I want to answer your questions. I already said my thing. So give it to me whatever you want to talk about.
And no joke. It was probably one of the best days of my career because these kids gave me so much information and so much material just because I was willing to sit there and be like, I don't know what to do. What do you have for me? I'm not joking in the 15 years that I've done this, that is a pivotal day in my career, where I learned that once in a while sitting there listening and admitting that I really don't know what to do right now, can be so fruitful and so helpful not only to me, but now I get to pass on what we talked about to 1000’s of other kids and adults and everything else that I talk about, I always bring up that brand in California example, because my mind was just blown away. By the way, it's also shaped my future presentations, because now I'm like, hey, give me an afternoon to just hang out. I'll come and talk to your kids, but I promise you this, we're gonna get some good shit accomplished. You just let me sit here and pick their brains, and some schools are a little bit hesitant about it. And other schools are like, yeah, we want these kids to talk, and they're not talking to us. So maybe they'll talk to you. And really, there's no formula, right? It's, I think the best thing we can say, and I've actually learned this with my own kids as well, like, I've no, I don't know, you tell me talk to me. And that's been really helpful. For me.
Lauren
There are two things that I was thinking of, as soon as you explained that lightbulb moment of yourself. So the first is I was listening to Michelle Obama's autobiography this summer. Obsessed. And at one part in the book, she mentioned a quote by her own mom, which was, I'm raising adults, not children. Which it's amazing, because if you think about it, there's no greater gift that you could give anyone in your life, including kids, then the gift of self awareness. And it's really interesting that we're recording this podcast at this time, because I was listening to a podcast interview with Glennon Doyle yesterday. And she had said, obviously, her topics are a bit more deep. I mean, children sexting is, of course, very important, and needs to be talked about, but she's talking about, struggles with addiction and things like that. And she thinks that when someone has a problem, they don't actually want a solution, they want a witness, like they want someone to just listen. And it's just like that with teenagers, right?
Katie
I think so. I think people are shocked, but how often do we give these kids a platform to explain themselves? Right? And I don't know that we do. It's always, let me tell you, let me teach at you, let me tell you what I want you to know, as opposed to what did I miss here? Right. I mean, at the end of the day, these kids are experts on this stuff. Of course, there's some things that we need to remind them of or that we need to talk about. But like I said, I have already failed if my plan is to go into a middle school or high school and say here are the top 10 things I need you to know, and this is how you stay safe. As a matter of fact, I see it on their faces. Because when I get introduced by an administrator, they're like, here's Mrs. Greer. She's here to talk about our current safety discussion. They're thinking she’s going to tell me this is bad for me.
And disarming is also a wonderful tool. Then my first comment to these kids is look, I love this shit. By the way, I've sworn in presentations before. Number one, I have a potty trucker mouth. Number two, it's authentic, right? It's so funny. When we hopped on this podcast, I'm like, ah, I need to watch my dirty mouth. And you guys were like, no, let it fly. Because not because I think swearing adds to my content, but it's how I talk and it's who I am. And I feel that disarming or letting them know right out of the gate that my job here today is not to talk at you. Number one, it's not to school you on how bad this stuff is for you rather to like, I want to engage in a conversation about how can we be critical thinkers about this stuff. How can we be better? How can we be safer? How can we ask ourselves important questions? So these things become a really good, useful tool for us. I'm not here to tell you that TikTok is dangerous, and you're all really bad people because of it. You know?
Lauren
Are there any common concerns or issues that you find teens tend to share once they open up?
Katie
Yeah, for sure. I mean, one lately has been it's so funny. I also make myself available on social media platforms. So I'll be like, you know, of course, you can ask me questions. But of course, sometimes kids don't feel comfortable asking questions in group situations, or in front of teachers, standing around or whatever it may be. So I get a ton of DM’s after the presentation. And I've had a ton of questions lately, around two things. One, perception versus reality. We talk a lot about body positivity, and I know that these kids are I mean, adults, right? Like I'm constantly slammed with the videos of these like gorgeous, beautiful moms that are fully made up and ripped and they're like I just popped out my fifth kid, I'm like shit celebrate the birth weight right with my second child. Anyway, you know, it's my house is clean and my food is cooked and my husband is oooh, and you think as a grown adult who is very aware of this stuff sometimes I think I’m a pretty bad mom or wish I could go hop on the Peleton. So imagine these kids dealing with being constantly bombarded by the same kind of stuff.
Lauren
I'm so I'm aging, I don't know what kid things like.
Katie
All these kids, they’re all influencers just making millions of dollars.
Lauren
Why do you know all these Phil?
Phil
Well, because I spend time on the internet and I watch what's happening on platforms like TikTok, while you're looking at Glossier products.
Lauren
I guess I am looking for an older demographic.
Katie
But when I watch this stuff as an adult, I'm sucked into their lives of who's dating who and where they're going in Hollywood tonight. But as a younger kid, or teen, these people are perfect and beautiful and rich, and they live these lives. And it must be really overwhelming to them, you know, in certain instances, and that's a lot of the things that kids express like they're wearing, decked out in designer clothes and driving their Maseratis and they're like 17 years old, making billions of dollars, and have like hot boyfriends and girlfriends and partners and friends.
And, you know, it's so overwhelming. I think that they're constantly bombarded by this, and how do I not compare myself to this world of this surreal world of perfection and fame, and beauty and wealth? So that's one question I get a lot.
Another question that I've been getting a lot lately too, which I actually just posted about this, because I kind of felt ashamed that I hadn't. This is another part of that vulnerability, instead of saying something like, oh, let me tell you how to say no, that was the question. How do I stand up for myself in a very big public place, right? Whether someone's attacking me on TikTok or Instagram publicly, or someone's expecting a nude picture from me or video? How do I say no, when this is just such a big public place, and it feels very uncomfortable to do so. And when I got a couple of questions like that, I posted on Instagram about it. And my first comment was, I feel really bad and I feel I screwed up, because I should be talking about this way more. And thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. One of those ways that we can listen, right, by me not saying oh, let me tell you how to say no, but acknowledging the fact that should I even think about I didn't think about telling you guys this, like my adult brain is way beyond able to say absolutely not.
But I don't know that that was a skill that I had when I was 14 or 13 years old, like in my awkward, weird, pre pubescent awkward middle school years. That we can give these kids tools to be able to effectively say no, and be empowered by saying no, and kind of reframing that for them, which again, was something that I had to learn that I had to talk about. But by listening, I feel like we struck up a really good conversation, because I've gotten a bunch of DMS and messages about, you know, from parents to being like, God, I didn't think to talk to my kids about like, it's okay to say no, when I give you permission. Sometimes these kids need to hear you have permission to say, no, it's your body, it's your rules be empowered by feeling that.
And then I'll share I guess, off off kind of a side, a little branch of this is one other thing I find very, very effective when talking to kids, it goes along with the whole, authenticity and honesty is sharing a lot of my personal stories. Or when it's not being once when I was a teen, but saying things like, you know, I don't think that I would have been able to say no in your position. So I'm really glad that you're asking this question. Let's brainstorm how we can do that effectively. Or what are some tools that we have? Or, look, I didn't do this stuff when I was a kid because I didn't have access to this technology. If I had access to technology, I probably would have been doing the same shit. So I'm not better than you, I didn't have access to this stuff. So let’s problem solve. What do you think is a good way to do this? How do you wish you could say no, so those are two big questions I'm kind of getting kids right now.
Phil
It's so interesting, because I actually think things are tougher now than even our generation because these influencers are normalizing things that aren't normal, right? And so for us, yeah we saw like Paris Hilton on TV, but it was a TV show. The whole thing about influencers and the reason why young people now often listed as their number one career, you know, desire is because it looks fun. It's made to look normal, but there's actually nothing. It is a career or there's nothing really normal about it. But that's, it's scary.
Katie
One of the things that I always talk about with kids, there's this one girl, I think her name was Essa O'Neill. She's gorgeous, beautiful influencer from Australia. It's like pre TikTok, probably a couple years ago. Every post of hers on Instagram was her gorgeous, beautiful, stunning, skinny and toned. And everything would be, you know how it is like, oh out for my 5am run in full makeup and full curls and the whole thing. And she broke down, she had a ton of followers, and she finally broke down in this horrible video of her, hysterically crying. This is not real life. I can't do this anymore. You know, when I shot that video in Bali of me vacationing, I was told by a dietitian not to eat for three and a half days so that I could fit into this suit, and have this look and you know, she was sobbing. I feel bad that I have portrayed this person. This is a terrible life. Of course a lot of people are, you know, very happy in that life. But she's like, for me, this is a lie. I live I get paid for this stuff. I get told not to eat for days, because so that I can look a certain way. This makeup, where I said I was just going out for a casual 5am run, I was up at 2am getting my hair and makeup done for this. I feel like it's starting to come out more.
Phil
I was about to ask if you think it is getting better.
Katie
I think so. But then I'll go back to the D'amelios, right? You see them in their sweatpants and T shirts, but they are Gucci and I don't know, there's the you know, I feel like these kids can sneak the shit out. Right? They know if you're trying to be casual cool, and in your Gucci tank, not that there's anything wrong with that. I wish I had a couple in my closet but you know, so, zero judgment. But I feel like it's really hard. It's really challenging for these kids to separate that. And I just I hope that that continues to be a message. I saw Dixie D'amelio just posted something on TikTok and says I just got called out for a video of being a brat because we have a chef in my house, and I barfed a snail he gave me. I just want to let you know, I have a gag reflex. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I'm very thankful for everything I have in my life. So I think moments like that are important, but I don't think we see enough of it. I can't imagine just my tween and teen years were the worst ever, I could I would not take a million bucks to go back to them. Never mind, with all these pressures, and everything being recorded and talked about in such a public way. It's just, there's a lot of pressure on these kids. So I think as adults, we need to for sure, acknowledge that it gives them the space to talk about it, they will talk about it, if you ask them to and don't come ask them about it. But just sit there and be like, I have no idea. Tell me tell me talk to me about
Lauren
One thing I was wondering is if you think of a business that's actually marketing to teens, it's kind of interesting, because teens obviously are sold on this, perception versus reality thing with influencers, but at the same time, I think they value like authenticity. So if you're a business that's trying to connect with a younger audience on social media, how would you recommend going about that?
Katie
Honestly, it's never a strategy for me, right? Especially when I'm connecting. I don't post to post right. And I know I should for business reasons and all that other stuff, but I also feel that that if I'm trying to reach kids. I post sometimes on Facebook, but my platform is Instagram to reach kids. I noticed that if I just sit there, pump out information or articles or tips, they're gonna just ignore me. So I feel like I try to be really strategic. And if I have something I want to say to you, I want to say it live. I love being live. I love messing things up and say ‘I didn't just mean to say that’ or ‘this isn't gonna work for everybody’. And I'm sure some people don't appreciate me hopping on in my PJs and my kids are running behind me. And again, it's not like a strategy. It's more here I am, I have something to say and I'm gonna tape it, or I'm gonna film it. I just think these kids are desperate for authenticity and not trying to be swindled or tricked into something. But from a business perspective, that's my method can. I don't know, like, I don't know that that's a good one. And I feel that's kind of a cop out to answer that way.
Phil
It's not. And I have good news, I'm not going to kill you for anything. I hope that people have chosen to listen to this episode, even if, for example, they're not marketing to kids, because I think you're a perfect example of someone who knows their audience, and you focus ruthlessly on their needs over your own. And you might even be the best example that we've ever had of someone who really authentically prioritizes the needs of their target market beyond your own temptations or desires, and that’s really coo.
Lauren
You beyond your ego.
Phil
So even for you to think that you're not good at it is like proof of putting ego aside.
Katie
Yeah, it's so important. You know, these kids have enough egos in their life right now. And I swear, it has changed my career, right? It has changed the way that I can talk to kids about this stuff in such a way that as a matter of fact, like, I changed my whole sexting slide, right? When I like talk for that whole portion where I'm like, this is what you need to know about sexting, it can be illegal, blah, blah. And now I literally sit there and go, I actually think we've been wrong about this. I've been wrong about this. I don't think I need to sit here and talk to you about sexting, because you already know what's going on. I think we need to talk about a couple of things that I want you to be okay with, right? Like owning your own body and things like that. And this is all stuff not that I like I came up with because I'm a genius. But just by listening to these kids, it's totally reframed as topic of conversation, which I think is super important for kids and adults to hear.
Lauren
Awesome.
Phil
We're gonna make sure people listen to this episode. Because it actually yeah, kids and young people that's involved in what you do, but the way you do it is really fascinating and really inspiring. And thank you for sharing all of that with us.
Katie
And not scientific, by the way, I just fly by the seat of my pants. It is how I roll.
Phil
Well, it's just proof you're doing the right thing. You're in the right industry, you're working with the right types of people and your work is having a positive, you won't even admit it. But your work is really having such a positive impact in the world. Isn't that kind of nice at the end of the day to know that what you're doing and spending time is making a difference?
Katie
I can't imagine what else I would rather do. I was just I did some of the Daily Mail the other day, and they were like, what would you do you think if I was like, I have no idea nothing? No, I wouldn't do anything. Well, I'm like, I can't imagine. I feel so lucky to be able to do it, I get a high. I get a giant rush whenever I get to talk to these kids. Learning, from them, seriously is a rush. For me, it makes me better at what I do. Right? In so many ways, these presentations are just people talking shit to kids, don't do this, make sure you check this, use your privacy settings here, don't use this and it's just so ineffective. The fact that I can learn and be better literally from them is amazing. I feel like I'm cheating people out of money. Sometimes I'm like, I didn't really teach you too much. It's awesome.
Lauren
But what a refreshing attitude. And Phil, you're right, your audience doesn't need to be kids who embrace that kind of mentality. A lot of times will work with clients and they'll create topics or like talks or content because it's what they wish they had which is fine. But it needs to be something that you wish you had and also what your audience actually need. Right?
Phil
It's short sighted and self indulgent. So Instagram, they can connect with you on Instagram. You do great Facebook Lives as well. I love when you're live. I catch those all the time.
Katie
I think about you and I'm like do you look at those and go oh my god, pull your shit together before it's live. Please take your husband's giant sweatshirt off and pull it together.
Phil
I love it all. And I think you are a great inspiration for someone who's nervous to go Live because you just do it in the way that you show up authentically is is really important for people to see if they're scared to just go ahead and do it. People should also visit your website. It's so beautiful. Your logo, I love it all. It's just so you were so grateful to have had these minutes with you on Brand Therapy. Thank you for showing up and just letting us experience your life in your day in the way that you think. It's really, really awesome and inspiring.
Katie
I adore you two more than you ever will know. So thank you and I miss you guys.
Phil
Oh, we missed you, too.
Katie
After this COVID nonsense. It's over. We're gonna have a giant family hug. So get ready for it.
Phil
We will and it better be somewhere exciting in the world. I don't want virtual I want real life and I want a cocktail or something involved.
Katie
I am over virtual. once vaccine. They can stick it directly in my eye for all I care.
Phil
You're the best. Thank you for this.