121. What's important to know about sponsored posts on Instagram?
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Wanting to dabble in the world of paid partnerships? 🛒 Before you do, make sure you listen to this! In this episode of Brand Therapy, hosts Phil and Lauren reflect on Phil's first month of creating sponsored content, which was both successful and surprising. From figuring out your rate to endorsing what you believe in, Phil dishes on discoveries and lessons he's learned along the way. For anyone who's ever wondered about starting sponsored content, this is for you!
Episode transcription
Phil
Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brands. We are brand strategists, you are a wonderful listener, joining us today for what I think is going to be a really exciting, productive little conversation about something completely new in our business. Really, I mean, it's something I've wanted to do now for a few months, that's even a few years. But it wasn't until, honestly, a few months ago when I started to get some emails that said, ‘hey, Phil, would you be willing to do a video, do a review, email your list about our app, our servers, our whatever it is, and not just offer you an affiliate deal, right a percentage on sales, but we want to pay you to actually talk about it’. So here we are talking about sponsored content, and what I have learned in the last few months of this. And now to just share with our listeners, actually, Lauren Moore, I haven't really looped you into a whole lot of this other than to say, look how much this brand is gonna pay me. I've kind of been navigating this world on my own. This is our first kind of moment of talking through this.
Lauren
It's very cool. I am so excited about this episode. A lot of the times you just hear oh yeah, this creator made $60,000 for an Instagram post this Kardashian got paid XYZ.
Phil
A million dollars for an Instagram post,
Lauren
But you rarely hear about the nascent days of sponsored content and how that even happens. So I'm really, really excited to chat about it.
Phil
Let me tell you what one of my early 30s business goals is. And I mean 20s were basically just do a job that I love doing and buckle your seatbelt and hold on for dear life. I'd say more recently, I'm trying to be a bit more evolved in maturity and strategic with what I do and what I spend my time doing. Obviously, for me, most of our income, or profit comes from working with clients, the large majority, but more recently, I'm thinking well, wouldn't it be nice to make money in some other ways, I'm not saying it needs to be more than the way that I've built a business, you know, around which is serving clients one on one. But last year, I launched courses, the year before that I bought a house that's used primarily as a rental. This year, I've started to make a small amount of money doing sponsored content, and it's, you know, getting paid for speaking engagements instead of showing up and doing them for free. I feel strongly that if I'm going to go speak somewhere, it's going to be paid. I feel strongly about that. And so this is kind of this newest income stream for me, and I'm not making a huge amount yet. But I also don't have, you know, hundreds of 1000s of Instagram followers, and I'm still earning more money and sponsored content in a few months than I'm paying in rent right now.
Lauren
I'm gonna be real for our listeners here. You're making 1000s like low 1000s. But you're making 1000s per month to post a couple of times on Instagram, which is incredible.
Phil
Yes, I am even for you to say that a lot. I'm like damn, am I and I am.
Lauren
And you know what they always say about how the average millionaire has seven streams of income. So maybe sponsored content could be one of those streams, who knows.
Phil
I would love that. I have a huge focus in the next few months on building my audience and really enjoying the grueling process of creating content on a lot of platforms. I don't follow my own advice and say focus on three, I do spread myself across multiple platforms, because partly why is that in this job, we're giving strategy for personal brands on how to best use their time. And I can't be giving strategy if I'm not actively involved on those platforms. So that's totally why I do it. And also the two of us working together, you handling clients stuff frees me up to think and give mental space for these other types of things. And sometimes they don't work, but sometimes they do work. And I'm happy to say that content, sponsor content, but we this does come with some lessons. And those lessons are what we're sharing today. This is going to be fun.
Lauren
Great. Okay, so what has been the most surprising lesson so far?
Phil
The most surprising lesson so far is that you can make money through sponsored content without having 100,000 followers.
Lauren
Now elaborate on that. Did you think that until you had a significant following that you just needed to get affiliate links and that was really what how it started?
Phil
Yes. I thought affiliate deals were the only thing that I would be open to at this level of audience growth. So I just recently recently surpassed 20,000. On Instagram, very exciting. I worked hard on that. And by worked hard, I mean, I carve out time in the day to be active on stories, not just to talk about branding, but to also talk about when my oven breaks, and I can't make cookies. So I have to get creative. It's spending time and there's no shortcut around it. Yeah, there's Instagram strategy like, but it's not to get rich quick. It's not like grow fast, you've got to put the hours into growing it, you've got to. And so I've, you know, it's kind of cool to reap the benefits of that it doesn't happen overnight. My first sponsor deal was $400, paid by a bank to write a blog post that you wrote, and I put my name on it. And I created the posts for Instagram. So it was kind of a double whammy. And it was a lot of work. But they paid me.
Lauren
When I was first starting out in my career, I would get paid that much in a day. And that would be, I would think that was excellent money, like eight hours of work. So just to put it in perspective.
Phil
Under 20,000 followers, that was back in February, and I had not reached that moment. Let me not interrupt you. So I wanted to keep going with that thought. I don't think I just want to clarify, I don't think it's because I hit the magic to zero number. I think it's because I'm showing up in databases, where people are looking to find relevant micro influencers who talk about subject X, Y and Z. I don't think it's about a number. It's not a superficial number. I think it's about me showing up in creating content consistently, and being registered in databases that companies and brands use to find micro influencers. That's what I really believe.
Lauren
And do you think it's from using keywords in your name field on Instagram?
Phil
Um, no, I don't think that that probably weighs much in it. I think they would look me up. And they would say, wow, you know, he's got some videos that have 100, 200, 300, views, but he's got others that have 20, 30, 40, 50k. And look at this 50k views video, he talks and recommends software? Well, let's pay him $500 and see if he'll make a video for us. I don't think it's so much about keywords in one particular place. I think it's about me, experimenting in the early days of a content creator and figuring out what sticks. By what sticks, I mean, what people want to watch, and also what I enjoy creating, because when I enjoy it, I do a better job of creating it. I think it's all of those things. I don't think it's one single thing. I really don't.
Lauren
I'm just wondering, would populate the databases you're mentioning, how could someone get on one of those databases? What are you doing to arrive there in the first place?
phil
I mean, that's a whole other conversation. But there are database tools, sparktoro is one that I was experimenting with today. And you can literally type in my name on there. And it will tell you my relevant topics of discussion based on hashtags I've used, based on words that are in my captions on Instagram, based on the words that are in my titles of YouTube videos. So it doesn't just It doesn't just look at one platform. It looks at my whole social media presence as a whole. And it can actually determine what I'm an influencer in and what my core topics are like, welcome to 2021. Yeah, it's not just about like, Oh, look, there's a keyword in my Instagram name. It's like no, look, there are 50 solid examples of me showing up and talking about this consistently.
Lauren
Welcome to 2021, he says.
Phil
Yeah, I know, but it is fascinating. I know I was just gonna say I know about sparktoro because I scripted a YouTube video that was three more free apps for content creation, which by the way, I filmed the intro and outro before I even knew what the apps were. Because by creating a piece of content based on another piece of content that's done well, it forces me to do the research and discover new things while working on the 20th. You know, like no, not 20, but like 10 to 15 client projects at any given time. That's what I have to do to even carve out even a few seconds to whip something up and you learn new things along the way.
Lauren
Can I tell you what has also surprised me a lot about your sponsored content adventures?
Phil
Sure.
Lauren
The fact that not a single brand has asked you about your engagement rate?
Phil
No, they haven't asked about it. Well, they also can see it, they can look it up on a platform like Social Blade. I mean, there's a million of them where they don't even need to ask me about it. They can see what my engagement rate is. What contributes to your engagement rate. Well, obviously How often you're showing up on social media and how well your social media content is performing. My engagement rate is pretty decent. It's not stellar. But it's not bad for the number of followers that I have. But yeah, they can see all that they don't even need to ask me. They don't need to ask me if they have access to all of that. It's all public.
Lauren
But they couldn't see how many impressions on average your posts get.
Phil
No, but they could go to an app, a free app like Social Blade. I'm going to do it right now. Instagram, let's type in Phil Pallen
Lauren
I am on there, and I'm not seeing anything.
Phil
Look, my engagement rate is, standby, it is loading,
Lauren
It says help us by authenticating.
Phil
Oh, how interesting, log into your free I guess I have to log in. This is new, they've changed it normally, engagement rate and all that information is public. So even if not on Social Blade, there are bills, zillion other apps later comm would probably tell you what my engagement rate is. That's like public knowledge. That's not something that I keep secret that's like available via API.
Lauren
Okay, you pass that test.
phil
Now, here's, here's what I'll say about sponsored content. The second thing I've learned, the first one is that you don't need 100k followers to succeed the second one, it is way more work than I expected.
Lauren
Put that in perspective for us.
Phil
My Adobe post took me around five hours, they paid me $500 for it, my hourly rate is $300 an hour. So I worked for a third of my hourly rate to do a sponsored Instagram post. When given that opportunity, when I got the email, Phil, we'd like to hire you for this. I felt like I'd won the lottery. Even though I have client projects that like to add zeros, I still feel like oh my god, they want me. I feel so special. I feel like I just won the one the role in this audition, but honestly, not a good use of my time. But a good lesson to be able to create this podcast five hours for a sponsored post is one thing. To create content, how you want to create it, and post it on your channel. But then when you're on the hook to deliver it for a brand, not only are you creating content, and then revising that content, if they have revisions, Adobe did not Adobe did not Adobe love what I did, but to create a piece of content that met my expectations, and then met their expectations in a contract that they had to revise four times, nothing to do with me just they to revise it, added it four times back and forth, back and forth, sign off read their list of like community guidelines reader, blah, blah, blah, you have to go through that you can't just sign off. So that took me Actually it was more than five hours. If you look it up in in our project management, it's probably closer to six or seven.
Lauren
I want to look it up now.
Phil
So it's more than five because I timed myself, you know, doing the contract and all of that just you just don't think about those things. You immediately go oh my god, a brand wants to pay me $500 to post something. I feel special right now. But it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And it takes way longer than you expect.
Lauren
However, in this case, I think it also depends on the brand. Right? Adobe has global recognition. So of course, it makes sense to say yes to really whatever they'll offer you. So I think that our listeners because I'm starting out,
Phil
Yes.
Lauren
Our listeners need to exercise judgment. If saying yes, is just going to get your foot in the door, or give you a really big brand name that could potentially get you more money with a deal later. I would say I still think it's a good use of time.
Phil
I do too. Absolutely. Because think about the time you'd spend pitching a brand. I didn't even have to pitch them, they came to me, which is pretty awesome. So I learned, a lot more working hours and expected not necessarily a bad thing. I'm not complaining about it. I just you know, within our business, there's only the two of us plus our team of trusted creatives. And we only have so many hours in the day and we have a lot of things we need to get done. I think all of our solopreneur all of our entrepreneurial clients relate to that. It's like okay, it's a lot to do on my to do list and I can't wait to watch it like you gotta do it.
Lauren
Yeah.
Phil
Okay. I have another thing that I learned. I like going through in my head, getting these ideas. The third thing I've learned, so we talked about not needing 100k. We talked about more work. I refunded a sponsored content opportunity last night. They paid me $500 upfront, which sounded great. I'd signed on a little, I'd signed on to do a little more than I was comfortable with. She kind of just weaseled that in at the end. She said can you also do it as a carousel and can you also do a story and email your list. I was like actually, that's a lot of stuff. But I went and then tried the app after they paid me and I absolutely hated it. I spent 90 minutes trying to figure out how to use it just for a single post that I was getting paid to post, and I still couldn't achieve the look, the feel. And I'm telling you, this thing was haunting me. This thing has been haunting me every night before bed, I'm thinking, God, I still haven't done that post, I still haven't figured it out. I really need to send it to them for revisions before posting etc. And I had said to you last night, I said, are you okay with me canceling this because I don't like the app? And you said, do it, what a waste of time. So I sent them a refund, and it was like therapy. And what did I learn here, try before you buy, try the app, the product or service before you agree to promote it. Ideally, the apps, the products or services that you're creating sponsored content from, or things that you're already using.
Lauren
I think that's really great advice. And as well, you want to promote products or software or whatever that you ethically agree with. Wouldn’t you feel terrible if someone spent 90 minutes themselves trying to figure out something you endorsed? I don't know.
phil
Yes, yes. But I think in the early stages, when the first few people are willing to give you money similar to when you first take on your first few clients in a service business, you kind of don't really care who they are what they're asking, you're just happy that they are seeing value in hiring you. And so I think that clouded my judgment a little bit, where I thought, yeah, I'll say yes, because it's a good opportunity. It's a new income stream, and I'll figure out the details later. Well, the details were not figured out later. I should have tried. The opposite is that hey, can you add me on this? Let me experiment with it for a few days, to make sure it's something that my audience is something that I can get behind. And something my audience will be interested in to make this worth both of our whiles? You know, I don't know.
Lauren
Yeah. Good. Love it.
Phil
Okay, item number four on what I've learned in my first few months of doing sponsored content. Sometimes it takes them forever to pay you. And let me say, the smaller the business, the smaller the client, the more likely they are to pay you on time. This is true in business. The corporation, the banks, the people who have money that should be willing to pay you fast, are a freaking nightmare.
Lauren
They are. They are even for clients.
Phil
The net 30, net 45. I don't know why it's pretty simple to just send my paypal $500 for a sponsored post. By the way, brands, if you're listening to this 500 is off the table. I'm only working for 750 and up. Maybe by the time you listen to published data might be 1000. So you better get in quick honey prices going up. I'll tell you the paperwork that I only found out about after doing the deal that I had to submit to get paid from a bank, there were seven, I'm not exaggerating, seven pieces of paperwork that came to me with a PowerPoint explanation of how to fill out each piece of paperwork to get paid $400 for a piece of sponsored content. Filling out the paperwork. I was so mad. I emailed them, not a nice email I said Had I known it was going to take this long to get paid, I wouldn't have said yes. Or I would have charged double because this is ridiculous.
Lauren
What was it even asking you?
phil
I had to submit proof of my business license.
Lauren
Oh my god.
phil
It felt like I was filling out forms for the IRS. Not every client has been like that. Not every client has been like that. Of course, some of them ask for a W9, you know, based in the US. Some of them don't even ask for anything. They're like, hey, what's your PayPal, we'll send you money and we'll get started. I mean, you should have a contract in place. I'm not going to tell you otherwise. Some of them I haven't yet, and I need to. But still no, I'm experimenting, and I'm learning and I'm sharing those lessons with you. But man, the bigger the corporation, the more you should charge because the longer it's going to take you to get paid. And you might have to additionally fill out a bunch of paperwork. It's ridiculous. So the lesson was learned.
Lauren
So stupid. Like ridiculous. A waste of everyone's time.
Phil
Do you want to know something? That brand collaboration was in February? And I at the time of recording this, it's April 16 and I have still not been paid.
Lauren
Yeah, I know. Because every time I log into our invoicing system, I see it red.
Phil
Yeah, I know. Oh, he said it's coming on Tuesday. But there was a problem with that. I had to send a void check. Physical check. I was like, but I'm in Colombia. I'm a digital nomad. I cannot mail you something. I had to wait, it would have had to be FedEx. I don't carry checks with me. What is this 1994?
Lauren
I don't even have checks.
Phil
I had to wait until I was back in Florida for a few days. Send a void check. Send All this paperwork printed in the mail with wet ink, I'm telling you, it was easier to get my green card than it was to get paid $400 from a bank. Find out the payment terms, find out what's involved with getting paid, before you tell them how much you're willing to do the deal for.
Lauren
Good lord.
Phil
I learned that lesson. I've one more idea, something I've learned more recently that I want to kind of riff off and see your thoughts on this. But we have an amazing client that we talk a lot about on the podcast, Juli Bauer Roth, who obviously does lots of sponsored content, she has well over 300,000 followers over 350, actually. And Juli is the epitome of someone who balances this well. Her affiliate deals do extremely well, because people trust when she makes a recommendation. But she doesn't just spend her entire time making recommendations now does she? She balances recommendations with products that she actually uses and loves that she's not being paid to talk about. So I actually think when you say yes to a sponsor piece of content, you need to go into that knowing that it's actually twice the work. For every one piece of sponsored content that you're going to post, you need to make sure you're balancing that with at least one piece of organic content, so that you're not just bombarding your audience with a sales pitch.
Lauren
I would say at least two.
Phil
Yeah, I was saying it out loud. I'm thinking actually, I think it's more than that. It can't just just be one for one. I think it needs to be two for one, I think you're right, in order to build that trust, at least.
Lauren
If you think about it, if you're watching TV, and there's always obviously commercial breaks, but you're really watching a show for probably what, 5 to 10 minutes and then 2 to 3 minutes of commercials, I feel like the same principle should apply to Instagram.
Phil
Totally. I think that's a really good analogy. It's exactly the same. I mean, those are a few of the lessons I've learned. Those are a few of the lessons I've learned in sponsored content, do you have any thoughts, comments, reactions,
Lauren
I think it's very exciting. I also like knowing that sponsored content isn't this kind of faraway aspirational goal for people. I think that if someone had over 5000 followers, they'd be considered to be a micro or a nano influencer. And you could probably start sending DM’s to companies that you love and just see what happens.
Phil
I've heard people getting paid for deals with over 1000 followers. So you go, there you go. And I've heard that from people who work in this industry, my friend Jenny Melrose, you know, I've got other friends that are in this space. And I think, yeah, if there's one important takeaway, it's that you know, you're if you're listening, if you decided to listen to this episode, you chose it based on some interest around this arena. And we would say to you right now, you've taken the time to listen to us, which means you could spend another 25 minutes and pitch a few brands. Put together even an email version of like, what your pitches are, how you can help people. It's really exciting. Don't wait for 20,000 followers plus 10,000 followers plus, see what you can do now and make this another income stream. That's kind of nice to have.
Lauren
Totally. There you have it.
Phil
There you have it, folks. That's how to do it. That's how to do it. That's what to watch for. Go and do it. Let's wrap this episode. Now. If you want to continue the conversation with us #brandtherapy. I'm @philpallen
Lauren
I'm @thelaurenmoore
Phil
You know what else we would appreciate? While we have your attention right here right now, this really makes a difference if you go to iTunes and leave us a review five star, five star. That helps other people discover this podcast that we work very hard to create. We love when you spend your valuable minutes with us as you've done here today. We'll see you back here for the next episode of Brand Therapy. Until then, see you later.
Lauren
Bye bye.