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Who wants to make some bigger profits? 🤑 Get ready to maximize your business' money-making potential with insights from Brand Therapy's special guest Tony Guarnaccia! Hosts Phil and Lauren chat with Tony, an expert in helping business owners find and make profit, about his mission, perspective, and tactics for taking entrepreneurship to new heights. If you're motivated by stories about people overcoming the odds to find success, listen to this episode asap.

Phil

Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.

Lauren

And I'm Lauren.

Phil

And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brands. We are so happy you're here. We love this podcast. I feel like this podcast exists, Lauren Moore so that you and I have at least half an hour every single week to either chat with ourselves, or it gets more exciting when we bring a guest into the picture. You and I, you know, we talk about things as the week goes on, but this is our sanctioned phone down, focusing on a great little topic for a few minutes. And it's even better when we bring someone else into the mix. Do you agree?

Lauren

I agree. And I will actually one up you by saying that I think it's better when we speak with a guest that we've never talked with before.

Phil

I'm going to one up your one up. And I'm going to say I think it's better when we have a guest and the topic is something that you and I are both extremely passionate about. Dare I say profitability and money is one of those topics that we freaking light up about.

Lauren

Yeah, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled today.

Phil

You’re not going to one up my one up?

Lauren

No, that's it.

Phil

I'll accept the victory.

Lauren

A guest we've never spoken before who talks about something that we're really excited about. I mean, that's the gold standard of podcasting as far as I'm concerned.

Phil

Tony is our guest today, Tony G or better known as Guarnaccia, and I turned his last name into a song and I just sang it in my head so that I pronounced his last name correct. Hey, podcast host. Here's a little tip. If you're scared about pronouncing someone's name correctly, turn it into a jingle, but only play the jingle in your head. I accidentally said it out loud right before we hit record and Tony heard it. How embarrassing. Tony, we're so happy to have you here.

Tony

Thanks so much for having me. Really excited.

Lauren

So Tony, I think to start things off, we obviously have seen your bio, and know all the incredible accomplishments that you've achieved throughout your life, but fill our listeners in a little bit about you.

Tony

Yeah, so I grew up in a small business. My parents had an Italian bakery. They were amazing bakers. Unfortunately, they know what they know about growing a small business. And so at the age of 12, we lost everything, you know, lost the car, lost the house, even had to give my dog up to my oldest sister, or second oldest sister. And it was a real challenge. But that is really kind of what set the foundation for the rest of my life's purpose, my mission. And so what happened was after that period of time, I years later, we rebounded, had to move into my oldest sister's basement for a few years to rebound, then end up going into college studying of all things entrepreneurship, because I wanted to kind of redeem the past, as I understand myself better now. And so I did a business plan when I was graduating for an online bakery. And so I started this online bakery with my parents going back to the cake theme. And what we were able to do is take a cake, put a photo on it, and mail it anywhere in the country. And because of this, we won the Best New Product of the New York incentive show, we were able to do cakes for Jennifer Lopez and Jay-Z. We did cakes for IBM and Microsoft, amazing companies. Again, here I am in my mid 20s. I'm thinking wow, this entrepreneurship isn't that hard. And what were my parents missing? But that's when kind of I learned that I know what I know. And so I lost everything again. But this time, the stakes were higher personally, because I was newly married and had a baby on the way. That’s when I said, gosh, you know, I don't know what I'm doing, but who does. And that's really what started my next phase of my journey, which was to work with some of the best companies in the world, which I did for over a period of about a decade or so.

LAUREN

Wow. Okay, so much to unpack there. What do you think went wrong, that led to sort of the second business failure? Looking back, what happened that maybe you would do differently today?

Tony

Yeah. Sure. Well, it's kind of a lot of what I talked about today, which is profitability. I talked about a lot of things, but profitability is central to a business. And so you have to understand that, you know, college is great, but it doesn't teach you everything. You know, working for companies is huge. And having these experiences yourself is even better. But what I didn't quite understand because a lot of times in college, they prepare you really for the corporate world to be a cog in a system essentially, as opposed to actually understanding how all those cogs work. And so I had a fundamental misunderstanding of probability. And what I mean by that specifically is the cakes were very expensive to ship because the packaging we needed to use dry ice. The dry ice was expendable, it literally evaporated. And so all these things contribute to a high cost of the cake. And then as prices went up with UPS and FedEx, it just wasn't profitable enough. And a critical thing that you know, more people are aware of now, but it's so important is the ratio between the cost per acquisition of getting a new customer, and the value, the lifetime value of that customer. If you don't understand that, you know, down to the penny, you're gonna have problems in any business.

LauREN

Okay, I'm going to be a little selfish. Well, first, I'll give you a backstory, and then I'll be selfish and get all the information out of you that would help Phil and I. So as a backstory like we've this, obviously, we are an agency, which makes things a little bit easier versus actually selling products, because there's always going to be a margin on top of your time. And so you can always it's been easier to know, with, like contractors and etc, how much you're profiting. And this year, in particular, we really, really have drilled down on that. However, something that we have not and are not tracking is that cost per acquisition. So where would you recommend someone start when calculating that? How do you even figure that out?

Tony

Yeah, that's a great question. So cost per acquisition is, you know, there's a couple ways to figure out but one of the first things I start with is, you want to have a CRM system in place. So that's a customer relationship management system. So in the agency world, it's gonna be different if you're selling products online, but specific to an agency, which I have an agency. So I can speak to this as well. But what you want to do is how to CRM system and then you want to have the systems in place to track the leads that come through. So this is where, you know, marketing automation is very helpful. And a lot of times you can reverse engineer where that came from, you know, a more basic level. If you don't have that you want to at least have Google Analytics on your site that's free. And that can give you an idea of where the leads are coming from. And then that's a manual process. But I was tracking leads 15 years ago before all this stuff was invented. So you can definitely do it with even, you know, basic tools like Google Analytics.

Phil

It's funny, because when you first started talking about the things kind of like formulas, and like, to me scary business words that you don't know, if you don't, you said, because it's ingrained in my brain now forever. If you don't know these things, then you're going to be in trouble. And I'm the type like, I have a bit of like numbers phobia. Now we've worked through that this year, I worked earlier. Well, actually, last year, I should say, last year, I worked with a consultant to work through my phobia of spreadsheets and numbers. We made progress. I'm still not 100%. But it's a work in progress. What I think is interesting is I was kind of scared when you first introduced what I probably don't know and need to know so that things don't go sour. But then when you started to talk about what this actually means, it could be as simple as investing in a CRM and letting the software do the number crunching for you. Or using Google Analytics, which is free and available to everyone with a website. Then you started to talk me off the ledge as someone who's like numbers, phobia or phobic? Can you talk a little bit about that. We use pipedrive as a CRM. And for a long time, I thought, well, we're just a small business, it seems a bit unnecessary to be typing all this stuff into a CRM. Lauren looks at pipedrive, I look at it maybe quarterly but she's got it on hand and Lauren, what are those things that you know, from pipedrive, you know, how many prospects do we need? Or how many leads we need to make a sale? It's like a number now.

Lauren

Yeah, yeah. So pipedrive, I will say, I don't know if I actually want to fully recommend them on this podcast. Because there are a few errors and things that I don't like now that I've used it a bit more. But pipedrive, is really cool, because you can see really what percentage of sales goes through out of every opportunity that's logged into your pipeline. So that's cool. And what I love is that it calculates how long on average it takes you to make a sale. So that's very cool. But Tony, are there any other specific data points that you recommend people track that are similar to that?

Tony

Sure, yeah. So to answer Phil's question first, you know, if you like sports, which not everyone likes sports, but imagine watching a football game, or a basketball game, and no one's keeping score, you know, it kind of ruins the fun of it. And so from a business standpoint, these numbers are how you keep score, because you can't prove something if you don't first define it and know where you stand relative to where you want to be. And so that's where that is so critical to kind of have the numbers down. It's a quick way you know, you could ask and anecdotally get some information. You know, you ask a salesperson, how's it going? They'll say it's great, right? But you need a way to hold accountability and also to see what has to be fixed. So the numbers are really critical. I get it. I mean, I'm an agency person to like, we like to create campaigns and do fun stuff. We don't want to be digging the numbers. I've been guilty of that. Not so much on that side. I'm more guilty of bookkeeping, like I hate bookkeeping. But I get it, believe me.

But in terms of what you want to track, well, you want to have a sales process. So one of the things that you do at the corporate level is they always have very good sales processes. And so you want to have what's called a sales pipeline. And that tracks someone from the very beginning of a funnel, like a sales funnel, which is where the pipe pipeline drives, that's where they get it from. But you basically take people through different stages. And at those stages, you want to have different kinds of communications. So at the time, a lot of mistakes that agency owners make, they qualify someone at the end of the sale, which sounds kind of crazy, but I'm gonna, you know, will you and get you all that. And at the very end, we're going to ask you to buy, I'm going to give you the pricing to show you I can do that is totally backwards, you want to have a sale, so you want to kind of run them through and start with a qualification. And so when I had my agency, I kind of moved away from the agency. But why am I the agency, that's exactly what we did. We had a virtual presentation, oh, actually started with an assessment. So that would qualify them both for themselves and for us. And then we go into a virtual presentation, which can be automated, then they went through more of an in person sales process. So they really didn’t talk to a person till they are further in. And by then they were more qualified. And then we got into the pricing. So it's you who really want the pricing to go up front, you want to prequalify out there. But the point is, you want to define the process, have scripts that go along with it, and then numbers to track it to see where you're going and what you can do to improve it.

Lauren

That's so cool. And now it's making me think that maybe we should switch out of pipedrive, because there are a few things in pipedrive that I mentioned not liking. One of them is that there's no real tracking between each stage of the dropout like the pipeline process. So you don't have any control or measurement of when people drop out of a certain stage, which I imagine would be useful to know. Because if people are dropping out, like when you're speaking to them, then you would probably want to only speak to people who are qualified, as you said, right. But another thing too, is that it doesn't allow you to track as well as a side note, I love how this has become a bash pipedrive. But another thing too, that I feel like is useful to track. And I'm curious to know your thoughts on this is also tracking your intended sale versus the actual sale. So for example, if we're pitching a company for a $30,000 project, and it ends up being a $5,000 project, pipedrive doesn't allow you to track the intended but versus actual sale. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Is that important to note?

Tony

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. That would go into the well, I talked about before that the ratio between cost per acquisition and lifetime value, you're looking at the lifetime value there. So it's very important. I mean, to me, I really even get into that discussion in my agency so much, we are moving away from that we are moving into more of a points model. So as an agency, you might want to look at how do I incorporate some kind of credit system or points model, because that's a very easy way to increase lifetime value and kind of make the sales process much more accelerated.

Lauren

Cool. So a lot of our listeners are either they run their own small business, or they're perhaps, like self employed, and it's just them and maybe a contractor here and there. What are your recommendations for tracking profitability if you were a business of one?

Tony

Yeah, so I recently just had this happen. So I had a fairly good sized agency, I think we got up to like, 20 people, but I kind of got tired of running it honestly. So I decided to move more into coaching and software, kind of why I always want to do is have my own SAS. So I kind of moved away from all that to start the SAS. So to get into profitability, it's the same thing you wanted to process no matter if it's a big company or for a small company, the critical thing is you have systems in place and you want to hold yourself accountable, just as if you had 20 people working for you. And really probability is really simple. What I teach is really there's two critical things, the what, like how much money you have, and when is it coming in? So how much is the profitability? When it comes, the fancy word is cash flow. And so the how much what you're looking at there is how much is going out and how much is coming in.

And so this is where you want to track from an agency perspective things like your efficiency, or even from a product standpoint, how long does it take to build something. So you want to know how efficient you are? And you want to look at kind of you want to know not to get too fancy with this but like your net profit margin your gross profit margin a fantastic book for this would probably be easier to recommend that is Mike Michalowicz he's got the book is Profit First, I would take a look at that. It's, it's a great book to read. And then the other part is cash flow. So you want to make sure you're accelerating when you get paid out, and kind of decelerating when money goes out. And so from an agency perspective, a lot of agencies bill after they deliver the goods. That's an absolutely crazy thing. I always billed in advance. And the more you can move towards a subscription or recurring revenue model, because the other trap not just agencies, a lot of businesses run into, they do project work, we're gonna do a website, and then we're done. So the more you can build recurring revenue streams, the more stable your company is going to be, in the end, it will be easier to grow it.

Phil

Okay? Well, Tony, we're excited to tell you about a recent pivot that we've made in our own business, not to get selfish. But sometimes this happens on the podcast, when we have a guest that we really like we're like, let me tell you what we've been doing. But for years, almost a decade, we've been project based, we still do projects, obviously, that's what we're known for. But it was the fall of last year where we launched Advance a program that really focuses on the third stage of how we help clients position build, promote, we had no way of helping someone after kind of building their brand and having this beautiful, essentially this house for them to play in and for them to, you know, website, photography, all these things, but then they would show up on Instagram. I'm like, What are you doing? What are you doing? I told you not to do that. But now.

Lauren

And also, just to interject, yeah, we could help. But to help a client and a one on one capacity would be really expensive. Yes. And so it didn't really make sense for us to pitch something when they kind of need to get in the trenches and work through it themselves. Sorry, continue, Phil,

Phil

We launched his six month group coaching program, and it has been awesome. This new way of engaging with clients and seeing them collaborate for so many we know all of our clients have seen all of our clients interact together is really cool. And I love looking at our financial spreadsheet and going wow, I know that this amount of money is coming in for the next six months, five months, etc. How cool is it? So you're talking about this pivot, and I'm feeling it? Yeah. So that's exciting. I just had to say that.

Tony

Yes, very, very powerful, very powerful. So it's much more predictable, because you can't really grow a business until it's predictable. And to have predictability, you need to know what's coming on a consistent basis. And you also have to be able to predict that sales funnel. So those two things we talked about is really the key part of the formula for having predictable growth, that's the key for any kind of growth is making it predictable.

Lauren

So I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume that you're good at automating things, but you're also good at delegating within your business. Is that accurate?

Tony

Yeah, I mean, I wasn't always good. That's something I learned over the years. But I remember just at the corporate world, I had this conversation earlier today, actually, when I started, I maybe I don't know if you're gonna get into this, but one of the reasons I was able to accelerate my career so much from literally being homeless, to like, Google's Partner of the Year and five years, was because I always rode the waves. And so the first wave I rode was like SEO, and believe it or not, back when I started, nobody knew it. And so all of a sudden, all these companies wanted to talk to me. And then I wrote the next wave, which was an AdWords. And that's how I had huge success. And then, of course, your social media. And the way that's there today, is, you know, virtual everything. And so I always try to be ahead of that, and just ride the wave, because you don't have to be a great business person.

You can just be competent, and grow just by the fact that there's so much demand. But what I learned early on, is you have to have systems and ways to do it. Because when I started, when I got my first job, out of that catastrophe I had, I was their SEO guy, and they needed me as much as I needed them. Like I had like, no money, but they needed me because I had no anyone that knew SEO. So here I am. And I had that fiefdom mentality is like, I want to control this. Well, that was all well and good until we had like, you know, 1000 clients, 2000 clients and my head were literally exploding. Like, I'm really good at systems, but even I break down at that. So I learned, okay, I gotta, I gotta let go and delegate. And when I did that, is why actually, my career really exploded. So the more you can let go, it's hard, because a lot of times you want to control things for security, or to avoid risk, maybe as an employee, but as a business owner, it's your baby. So you want to control it then too, because you want to make sure it's done in quote, unquote, right. And so the advice I would give is, yes, have a system so you can delegate because that's another stumbling block, that will be the bottleneck keeping you from growing.

Lauren

Okay. I want to sort of shift gears because you mentioned SEO here. Yeah. Do you think that SEO is important for a small business?

Tony

Yeah, the most important thing, in my view, and the one thing that most small businesses don't have is a strategic plan. So that's really what you need is a strategic plan, because all the other things are just tactics, right? Because SEO might be the necessary thing you have to have in a certain segment. In other segments, it might be the wrong thing. So in my view, the better question is, what markets are you serving? What products and services? Are you serving them? What's your value proposition? And then based off of all that, you then define your go to market strategy and what channels you're going to leverage. SEO is just a channel.

Lauren

Cool. I love that answer.

Phil

Yeah, that's a really good answer. It's refreshing for people who think that they need to obsess over it and learn everything from scratch, but there's only a certain amount of time in the day. So we're obviously recording for the podcast, but then we also have the luxury of seeing you via zoom. And right behind you is this amazing visual and chart. And I need you to kind of like, I'm gonna have you talk about it, because I want to know what an organization results loop is. But obviously, we're recording so you're gonna have to talk it through, tell us what is this amazing diagram?

Tony

Yes. So the one thing having agency I realized over and over again, that businesses were lacking was a strategic plan. So if you work in the corporate world, if you sit at Ford Motor Company, and you work with them, they're going to have dozens of people in a room with a 20, tabs, spreadsheet scary. With all contingency plans, if this happens, we're gonna do that if this happens, we're gonna do the other thing. And it's all worked out. Most business owners, small business owners spend more time planning their birthday, their wedding, their vacation than they do their life or their business.

And that always bugged me because I wanted to get clients to a certain level, but they were their own worst enemies. So I said to myself, you know, what's the problem here? Why is this not happening? Why don't people plan? A it's not fun? B, it can be hard, maybe they don't know, how, if they get a consultant can be expensive. You know, there's a bunch of reasons. Or maybe they were afraid to fail, because once they define it, and they don't achieve it, they might feel like a failure. And so I said , okay, how do I attack that problem? Because I'm the kind of person that's going to attack a problem, not just say, oh, well, it can't be solved. So I say, okay, how do I take everything I've learned over the years working with these great companies and condense it to just six steps that anyone can do? And literally, it's true. My daughter is a Girl Scout. I took the Girl Scout troop through the results loop, and they dramatically increased your cookie sales after 15 minutes of working with me. So it works for everybody. The picture is going to be in my new book.

Lauren

Great. So what are the six steps?

Tony

So step number one is to define your market. And so with the Girl Scouts, for instance, I said, okay, who's your market? Well, Mom and Dad are probably gonna buy some cookies. Okay, well, who else? Well, we have the neighbors. And who else? Well, you know, sometimes we can go outside the grocery store, we can sell it. Well, are there any other grocery stores in town? Well, there is an idea. One kid said, you know, my mom's yoga studio sold a bunch. All of a sudden someone else in the group was like, we're in this other studio, no one's asked them. So it's a very powerful thing, because it makes you define the market. And once you define it, you have other ideas on how you can brainstorm and attack it. And also, you can start measuring, right? So one market might work better than the others. And so the absolute first place to start in any of this is with that market.

Lauren

Amazing.

Tony

So step number two is to define your products and services. Now, when I started my agency, I was amazed at how many people never actually did this. Like they didn’t actually defined the products and services. We build websites. Well, what kind of website do we video videographers? What kind of videos do you do, like, you know, animated videos, you do like videos for, you know, trade shows, you videos for what you know, they didn’t know. So how can you sell something if you don't know. But again, this is powerful, because everything you do comes as an extension of your markets and your products and services. They're actually married together. And so if you sold Ferrari's to low income people, you probably struggle, right. And likewise, if you had high income people, and you sold cheap cars, it might be a challenge. So you have to marry those two together. But there's also a very powerful exercise. You can take the products and services and map them out against your markets, which is called the Ansoff Matrix, it's I didn't come up with this. But what you can do is have four quadrants. And you ask yourself the question, what new markets can I provide new products and services? What existing markets guys provide new products and services? What existing products and services can I provide to new markets and so forth and so on, you go through. All of a sudden you have a whole idea at how you can grow and scale or in my case, why did I use it to pivot during COVID. I said, okay, my agency happened to have some clients and you know, travel and events, we lost a ton of money in our agency. So instead of just kind of wailing about it, I said, okay, well, how do I pivot into another market? Which you know, I did. And so for the Girl Scouts, I asked them, okay, what's your top two cookies? Well, happens to be a thin mints and timoans. So I asked them, because he always has to tie this application. It's not just theory. So I say, okay, when you go up to somebody, what's the first two cookies, you should offer them? Well, the thin mints and timoans because they're more likely to say yes. That's a sales training that these girls are already incorporating. And then the third one, because you always want to be upselling, then you throw in the lemon, whatever, then nobody even thinks about it. So you want to kind of the products and services that are married to your markets. So that's step two.

Step three is your value. Now value is a very difficult one, and this gets into branding and everything else. But value really answers the question why someone would buy from you, as opposed to anyone else or, god forbid, do nothing at all. And so this is where you have to really deliver your results, so people aren’t buying products and services, they're buying the end result that those products and services deliver. And so what I call that is a bridge, you have to take them from where they are to where they want to be. And your messaging is really what helps communicate that in a nutshell, that's the value.

Phil

We love that one. That's such a big part of what we do. So we love that step. We like that step, keep going. I love these steps. These are brilliant.

Tony

Thank you. Thank you. So step four, is getting new buyers. So this is where a lot of people obsess. If you have an established business, this is probably the wrong place to start. But a lot of people go here. So this is getting new buyers. This is the funnels, the sales and marketing funnels. This is where your inbound strategy would come in SEO, paid search, things like that. So that's new, I'm not going to talk about that one too much. Because everybody in the grandmother does this. But this is where you know, going back to the Girl Scouts, this is where the brainstorming of your markets would come into play. So if you're a yoga studio, one who has a yoga studio to use that yoga studio three. So this is where that's really married. So they're all interconnected, which is why if you see it, it's an infinity loop, because it's a recursive model.

Now, step number five is where you have your, the size, this is a lifetime value that we hit on already. This is getting your buyers to buy more. So this is where a recurring revenue model comes in. This is where upsells and cross sells come into play. Because the more valuable that buyer is the customer, the client, the patient, the more you can pay to actually acquire them. So they're really closely related.

And then the last one, six, which is where the magic is, unfortunately, most people don't focus on, is loyalty. Loyalty is really two critical things. One, getting people to buy again, again, which is kind of married to lifetime value. But then the second part is getting them to be your raving fans, your advocates. Loyalty is why it's what it's called, but really, from a monetization standpoint is looking at referrals, getting them to refer you to others. And that, in fact, is how you know the fastest companies grow. If you look at Facebook, Slack, they all have referral systems in place that are mostly automated. And so if I work with an established business, I work backwards in the results loop, I start with loyalty because that's the lowest hanging fruit that's the least expensive. And then if it's a startup a newer company, then you have to unfortunately go around the other way, you have to start with the new buyers. But that's the most expensive, you know, way to do it.

Lauren

Could you give an example of how you start work backwards with a more established company?

Tony

Yeah, so if you're dealing with a challenge, like with COVID, first thing you should do is make a list of all the clients you've had in the past or even the prospects go back five years, call them up, you see if they want to buy again, see if they can refer you to somebody. You know, it works just as well with prospects is do does actual sales. So that's always the first place to start. So I started doing that with myself, I call the clients, and there's some super low hanging fruit right there. And so that's the first place I would start from a Girl Scout perspective, because we were hitting on that before, I said make a list and they actually had a list. Okay, everyone that bought last year, go back to those people. Because it's surprising how many people don't do that. They forgot that the neighbor next door bought like 20 boxes, and for some reason, they never go there. And so literally make a list of whoever's bought, which instantly, kind of going back to what we talked about at the beginning. This is why you need a CRM place, because you can't go back to people if you don’t remember who they are. So you have to have a system to track that. And so that's where I would start there. Ask you know, if they can't buy, ask them for a referral. If they do buy, once they say yes, ask them for a referral, if they say great job asking for referrals. So you want to make sure referrals are part of your culture. So you're always kind of asking for that.

Lauren

So we are fortunate because we exclusively operate on referrals, or people just cold finding us cold online. But we are lucky that a lot of our past clients do send referrals just naturally. We have never asked for referrals before and it's something that has always made me and Phil very, very uncomfortable. Because I don't want clients feeling like they're being used or being put in an uncomfortable position. What are your recommendations for asking for referrals without being obnoxious?

Tony

Yes. So this is something that a lot of people get wrong. You have to always lead with value. And so you have to have what I used to think about from a agency perspective, was having a referral kit. So these are things that would add value. So this is a tool you create. For me I have a book and so hey, you like the book is there someone else who can give the book so you're giving them something to give away for free that makes them look like a hero as opposed to you know, outsource salesperson. So always regardless of how you do any of this dot, you know, factor number three values what you leave with.

Lauren

Okay, well I guess we have to get working on our packet.

Phil

We need to. This was so great. We went a little bit longer than we normally do, because we needed all of the steps. And for people that need that visual, you've done well to stick with us and listen to what those are. But it helps to see it. That's included in our show notes for this episode, but Tony to wrap tell us how people can find you and get more of you.

Tony

Yeah, so if you want to hear more of my stories, if you want to download the templates, which I have all for free, speaking of leading with value, that's exactly what I'm doing now. So literally, my best stuff is in here, and it's absolutely free. All you do to get that is go to smallstepsmanifesto.com. You can download it, read it, it's all there. Now you don't even actually have the behind a lead form. So it's truly there for the taking. And then the other part is if you want to connect with me more on a personal basis, you can go on my website, meettonyg.com, because no one can say my last name, or spell it. Except for you because you got the jingle all the way down. And then you can connect with me via social media. LinkedIn is always a good one.

Lauren

Great. Well, thank you so much. Oh my gosh.

Phil

I love it. Tony Guarnaccia there's the jingle. Thank you so much for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy. This has been really awesome, enlightening. And then Lauren and I are gonna hang up and go, oh my god, what do we need to do first? Thank you for giving us that and our listeners.

Tony

I'm glad I was able to add some value today. And yeah, it was very nice meeting both of you.

Lauren

Thanks so much, Tony.

Tony

You're welcome.