128. How do you grow a baking business? (f. A Sweet Whim)
Special episode alert! 🚨 For this fun episode of Brand Therapy, Phil and Lauren call up baker (and Brand Therapy superfan) Kate for an impromptu consultation. The hosts discuss Kate's greatest business challenge, suggest ideas for scaling, and discuss the secret sauce of her business. If you run a brick-and-mortar business, don't miss out on this episode!
Episode transcription
Phil
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. I have to say, you've chosen an amazing episode to listen to. This is one that we've been concocting for a few weeks, it's a crazy little idea I had the back of my mind. And it happened today wasn't this so fun Lauren?
Lauren
It was. You came up with this idea, and what I love about the format of this episode is it's kind of a throwback to how we first started Brand Therapy. Basically,
Phil
It is a throwback to the format. You're right.
Lauren
Yes, and as listeners will hear in just a minute, we surprised a listener of our own dear Kate, and used the episode as a little consultation I suppose, to help her with her greatest branding challenge.
Phil
One of our biggest fans, our most loyal listeners, she is our guest today, I'm not going to ruin any more of the surprise. Let's go ahead and listen to this episode with Kate.
Kate, how are you?
Kate
I'm good. How are you?
Phil
I'm so good. You have a full day of baking ahead. And I decided to just sandwich my way into your schedule. I sent you a little dm a few days ago, and I said, Kate, I want to show you something really cool. But I didn't give you any details.
Kate
No, you did not.
Phil
You don't know any details about why you're here today.
Kate
Correct.
Phil
No, don't be nervous. I knew you would be nervous because I knew you're the type of person you're like, give me all the details. Give me all the details. I need to know all the specifics.
Kate
100%.
Phil
I know you, that ruins the fun. I mean, I don't know you that well, but I know you enough that you would want all the details ahead. Okay, so I brought you here very intentionally. And I have a surprise coming up in a few seconds. Let's see if you can. Should I see if you can guess what the surprise is going to be? Or should we wait a few seconds to see happens?
Kate
Let's just see what happens.
Phil
There we go. So I brought in a little surprise guest. My surprise guest is Lauren Moore.
Kate
Hi!
Phil
Kate doesn't know, but she's about to realize that we're recording an episode of Brand Therapy right now.
Kate
Oh my gosh.
Phil
Our most loyal listener.
Kate
You guys are crazy.
Phil
It took everything inside of me not to tell you what we were gonna do inside and I sent Lauren in the wrong zoom link and all of this. So I left Kate sitting here waiting.
Lauren
He was like, come on at 11:17 and 30 seconds. I had it queued up in my zoom the number I hit join in 28 because I knew there would be a two second delay before you could see me. And then I'm sitting there and I was the only one in zoom. And then Phil says like come on now and I was like I'm here.
Phil
Know what else I did? I tried so hard to keep this a secret. I also, the first zoom call I had made I had said each of you separate invites, the one I sent Lauren said surprise Kate podcast interview. And that's where I made the zoom line. And then I had sent that to UK and then I realized 15 minutes before today. I was like dammit, she's gonna see the title and know.
Kate
Luckily I did not.
Phil
Thank the Lord. Okay, so don't stress because we've met once in real life. We met in Florida and we had a blast. I know you're that the personality type to be like you want to come into something like this prepared. But that ruins the fun. But we decided, Yes, exactly. We decided that it would be really fun to just get you on the line turn episode out of how grateful we are for you being our loyal listener. I know there's a few out there but you consistently repost our stuff and you let us know. And when I met you in real life, you were like I like episode number this and so much for person. And so I think you're our official superfan of Brand Therapy today. Today is dedicated all to you. You don't need to plan anything. You don't need to come up with questions beforehand because you didn't get a chance to. But we're just going to be here to help you navigate you know, let's brainstorm some things. Let's hear what you're up to. Let's hear some of your business goals. And today is all about you.
Kate
Oh my gosh. Well, thank you guys. I'm obviously super surprised. I feel like I'm almost the Lauren right now because he usually pulls this on you like oh, by the way, Lauren, we're just gonna do this. thing and you had no idea what's going to happen.
Phil
So classic. Now both of you get to experience it. Okay, so Kate, let's let you kind of open it, and I said to Lauren, we'll have a little look at your website. And we'll have a little look at your social media so that if you're not sure what to bring up, we'll have some ideas for you. But if you had the chance, since you do have the chance to talk to Phil and Lauren, from Brand Therapy, about anything, maybe something you're experiencing in your business right now, does anything come to mind?
Kate
Oh, my gosh. I mean, I've dreamed of this moment, obviously. But I never actually thought it would happen. So I don't have anything that comes to mind right away, because I am a super planner. But I guess just overall, just help making my brand more me and more professional. Because I don't know if everyone feels this way, but I feel like when I look at my stuff, I can tell it's a bit like amateur. But I don't know if it's just because I did it all. So I like I know it's amateur, it's like an outsider sees the same kind of things that I see or not. But obviously I look at all of your work. And I'm just like, one day, one day I'll get there.
Lauren
Oh, well, first of all, I think you are already miles ahead of most people, because most people don't even try to create their own stuff. They don't even make that effort. So let's work on that self talk and that self deprecation. Because already that's that's something you should be very proud of. I would love to know, before we get into the mechanics and nitty gritty of your brand. Could you give a little overview of your business for our listeners? And also let us know if you have any long term goals for your business?
Kate
Okay, yes, so I am a pastry chef in the Orlando area, my business is called A Sweet Whim, I specialize in custom cakes and French macarons. I got into making French macarons because they're super challenging. Not a lot of people do them. And I just love all the flavor combinations you can do with them. So I really love that I get to be creative with that. For my business, I knew I wanted to do something that I could really just engage with my local community, I really just community outreach, supporting like nonprofits and stuff is something I'm really interested in. Environmental sustainability is something that I build my brand off of, because when I worked in the corporate world, I just saw on a corporate level, all the things that I felt, and knew that we could be doing better as a society. And I know that with corporations, it can be difficult, but I feel like they are the ones that need to make these moves so that we can make more of an impact, a positive impact.
So I knew when I started my own business, that was going to be one of the things that most jumped out to me that I wanted to really fight for. As far as goals go, I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. I recently started, I go back and forth between books like one I'll be, you know, self help, almost like business book. And then I'll do something fun that I don't have to think about. But right now I just started the it's called high performance habits. And it's just been a lot about like intention and goals. And I just started with so I'm not too far into it. But I've been thinking a lot about goals lately and just been talking with my husband about that. Shout out to Michael, who's my number one fan, my number one supporter.
Phil
But if he's your number one then I'm your number two, because let's switch. Let's switch the superfan roll here for a second because I've tried your macarons and you had you correct it like you will you didn't correct it. But I heard you say back around instead of macaron, and I was like oh, I better follow the expert here. So now it's different.
Lauren
It's a totally different thing with coconut. Yeah, I know because I don't think our listeners know this. I'm addicted to food reality TV shows. And when I found out that you made macarons I was so impressed because it's the hardest thing and it's always used to really shake up the competition because you can fail so quickly. It's very technical,
Kate
Very, very early, simple ingredients, but a very technical process. So I enjoy it.
Phil
And you do this every single day and they are so freaking good. I need to stress to our listeners, particularly anyone in the Orlando area. These are next level. I'm not gonna brag here for a second but honey, I've traveled the world. I've had a lot of macarons in France and in my life and yours are so far the best they are so far the best compared to anything else. And also what I love is you get so creative with your recipes.
My friend Austin, who lives near me when I was home in Florida for a few days had come over and visited me and we were hanging out and I said listen, you're in for a treat literally because look at what my friend gave me, after we had. And he had one, the next day he ordered a birthday cake. That was the impact you made. And so there, I just had I, I had to say that you can keep going now.
Kate
I thank you for that. That's one of like, my favorite things to hear is either someone that's had them before, and tells me mine the best, or someone that's never had them before, or says that they don't think they like them, or they don't like them. And then they have mine. And they're like now addicted. So I call all my my people out there, I'm like, I'm your Mac dealer, you know, like, hit me up. It's super fun. I love it. That was one of the things I missed most about when I was working in the corporate world, you don't get to see the end result really like you don't get to have that response from the person that's actually enjoying your product.
So that's been probably the most rewarding thing about finally starting my own business is just like getting to talk to the people getting to, see them take that first bite. There's just it, you know, it's one of those things, you can't describe it. But I know you guys know what I'm talking about.
Phil
And social media helps that right? story and you're able to also consume not in a digital way. I was gonna say. So to reiterate, your goal right now is a combination of things. But you want to grow your business without losing the touch point of being one to one with people, would you say?
Kate
Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely.
Lauren
I don’t know if this has ever been done before, but I think it would be really cool if you offered a Macaron subscription to people. Have you explored that?
Kate
Yeah, that is one of that is one of my main goals for the future, I dipped my toe into it a little bit. Right now I do something called a $5 delivery day, which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but you know exactly what it is when you hear it. So I'll do one day a month, I will basically just drive all over Orlando and just for $5, I'll deliver macarons. So it's kind of fun, because I get my people that are either they're working or they're busy, they can't make it up to the farmers market. So I get to drive around and you know, deliver treats. And it's really fun. But I eventually I would love for that to be a Macaron subscription. And I know it's been done. I know that you know, there is a need for it. But it's just one of those, I have to get the influx, the consistent influx of orders for that specific day. And still finding, I can create flavors all day, but creating like the flavors that people are going to want consistently. I wouldn't say I struggle with but I'm still kind of refining that skill.
Phil
So I would challenge that because I don't think, yes, people get excited about specific flavors. But all of your flavors are so good that I think there's as much magic in a surprise, and us trusting Kate and a sweet ram to deliver such quality, which you do that I don't think that's the right thing to stress about. I think that we trust you. You're a chef, you're a chef. Yes, we want to hear from our customers what they like, but your customers also need to trust your decision to choose the experience for them. I also think $5 I want that to be 10 or $15 subscription days. And I don't like that's not enough for the experience that you provide people in my opinion. I mean,
Lauren
They're paying more they're paying for the actual. Okay, good.
Kate
Yeah, they pay for the amount that they pay. So for six, I sell six for $16 and12 for $30. So usually for those days, they're either buying six plus, sometimes people will be like, I want three dozen. And I'm like awesome. So you know, you get you get a variety, a range of what people are wanting for that time, depending on, you know, an event.
Phil
I wasn't sure if it was like $5. And then you pay for one or two or three. That's not enough. You want to make sure it's a minimum. But that makes sense.
Lauren
I'm just imagining something, maybe you could partner with a local florist that it could be like the first Monday of every month, you get 12 macarons, and a bouquet and it could be like a subscription that you split with them. Or even if you did it on your own. I agree with Phil, I think there's something really magical in the surprise element of not knowing what flavors you're going to be getting that month. So on the first Monday of every month, your subscription could be $30 for 12 macarons, and that includes free delivery so that way they're getting a bit of a discount, but it's also securing you ongoing income. And it's also something just for people to look forward to as well. So that might be a way to set up some recurring income and then that way you're you're making one sale ultimately instead of having to hit people up for more and more sales with every individual purchase.
Kate
Right.
Phil
Can we explore that a little bit further, I love where this is going. You mentioned bouquet and macaron, and those two things, to me feel like very self carish. I think that people would sign up for it. I would in a second. It's the same to me, there's the same appeal of a subscription box, no one has a subscription box to something they actually need. Right? It's the novelty of it arriving in the mail. I know, Kate, part of this, too, you're very passionate about the environment. So it's figuring out the right packaging. If you were to ship it, that's an interesting challenge, I wouldn't have much insight on that. But this subscription model is brilliant. I mean, give people one month free if they sign up for a year. And I just don't see why people wouldn't for something like $30 a month, that's 30 to $50 a month. I think that's money that people are just happy to spend on a small business, for an amazing product. And for a consistent, surprising experience.
And maybe it's themed around self care. This is for you, you know, this kind of like one month little drop in thing. People buy flowers, people, some often only get flowers if someone buys it for them. But it's such a nice experience.
Lauren
And adding on to that. Perhaps if someone's a subscription member, they can get 10% off of any other order that they place with you, too. Yeah. So yeah, because everyone has to go through birthdays with friends and family. And I think it would be great if if someone knew they would be getting 10% off of whatever they bought with you. Maybe think of you whenever they need a cake for something or whenever they want to do something nice for a friend and surprise them with macarons or whatever it is.
Phil
Kate would be perfect for this event coming up this thing coming up. And if anything, it's not really about the discount of money. It's more just a way for you to stay on their radar.
What about the fact that Kate eventually this is going to have to grow beyond just you? Have you thought about that? Do you want that? What does that look like for you?
Kate
I've thought about it a little bit. But it's really hard for me to imagine something bigger, I guess. I know that I don't want a storefront. I know that's, that's when you think of a baker, you think their dream end goal dream is a storefront. And that's honestly not my dream at all. My dream is to still have my freedom. And with a storefront, I know that I wouldn't have that necessarily. Definitely, definitely not for me, but down the line, I think it would be amazing to partner with other local businesses and almost have like mini storefronts that if my locals wanted macarons on a Monday or something and I deliver on you know, it's not their subscription day or whatever, they could go to the local coffee shop and like, they always know I've got macs there or, you know, another like a boutique, stuff like that. Just having like local spots that offer my product, I think would be fantastic. And just I really really love doing events that either the money's going to charity, or it's going to an organization that needs it or charity balls and like stuff that like Give Kids the World put on. If I could like partner with that and then make the desserts for that event or something I think that would be amazing, as well. So those are big picture goals, but I think it's definitely doable one of these days, but just taking the steps to get there and make myself known.
Lauren
So first of all the local coffee shop thing could happen this afternoon. It could happen tomorrow. All people need to do is just so an owner or manager just needs a bite of a macaron, and they'll want to be selling it to their customers.
Phil
So I completely agree with that. Go in there come up with one little I know COVID makes it a little bit challenging but come up with some kind of little package that's thoughtful thought of you or I don't know Lauren can come up with something better but something.
Lauren
I think something like pick me is cute. Like a pick me box. You can give an overview to it because your flavors are so creative like on your Instagram. It's so mind blowing. And so any sort of independent, cool hipster coffee shop is gonna want to be selling these no question because it's unique.
So I think for like leave a box it's worth the investment in my opinion of time to create boxes full of some of your favorite macaron flavors that you've ever made. And attach it with a little note saying that you are local that you're sustainably conscious that you take pride in creating macaron flavors that you can't find anywhere else. And you really, in a very sincere way, say what you like about their establishment and say that you would love to find a way to partner and bring more creativity and joy to their customers. So while also doing good business. That to me is a really, really easy way to alleviate the burden of a hand delivering things to multiple people, you just have to deliver it to the one coffee shop, and they do the rest.
KATE
That's a great idea. I keep making excuses why I don't feel like I'm ready for that yet. But I know that that's just one of those things I'm never going to feel ready for. So I just kind of have to at least start somewhere like just go to one shop, you know,
Lauren
Make a goal, one shop per week. That's a very doable goal.
Phil
That's 52 shops in a year. I know you're more shy than someone who is like, super, I don't know that you're shy, but you're more introverted than extroverted. And so the idea of like, showing up is probably a little bit stressful. But I actually think those meetings are going to be more positive than negative. I mean, you're giving people something for free. And it's so tasty. And I think, to start those relationships, it's absolutely brilliant. And also, there's some psychology in giving something someone for free, and then feeling like they owe you something. That's just how it is. I mean, that there is that's very powerful, I think, especially when it's like a baked good. You know, like, you've made that with your hands and your heart. So you have to try this experiment, report back, we are telling you, I love that Lauren just called you out. She's like this could be done this afternoon, this could be done tomorrow. And I quote, this is us telling you to do that, which I know is kind of stressful from this point of view.
But trust me when you're over that hump, I can actually relate to this in a totally different way. I normally go to the gym with my BF. And he's gone this week, and I've been going, I went four times in a row every morning by myself. And that is my version of a nightmare. I know it's not the same thing. But as you're describing just the uncomfortableness of that, I feel that and today was the first day I went and I said you know what? That was like day four on my own. You know what I can do this I'm not I don't look like a total nerd in here, with all the muscle heads around me. They're not looking at me, and I'm not really looking at them. Everything's fine. I'm making up a lot of the stress in my head is what I realized today. So it's great talking about this. I think the same thing. I mean, I think people are gonna respond really positively.
I also probably would add to Lauren's note, I would I mean, you, Lauren, you said good business to emphasize good business and what that means I think there's also a pretty nice profit margin for those cafes. And to think about right now cafes in particular, are well restaurants are struggling, I think cafes are struggling, but also, I think they're about to boom, as people are vaccinated and the world opens up a little bit more, which is still not here yet, but it's coming. I think more people are going to be working from cafes to get a break from working at home, because they're not working in the office as much.
So I think there's huge opportunity for you coming up. And as Lauren said, to streamline your operations, having to go run gas and deliver home to home is fine for right now, but you don't need proof of concept. We already have proof of concept. This is an amazing product, you need to streamline streamline. A good example of this would be sweet green, which is I don't think it's not in Florida yet. Is there a sweet green in Florida? I don't think so. Maybe in Orlando city center, but I think it's like more of a West Coast US thing but it's a little bit like Chipotle lay but tastier. Lauren might disagree. She loves AAA.
Lauren
I do love Chipotle, but I appreciate Sweet Greens.They're in completely different categories in my mind. Sweet green is yes. resh, healthy fresh. So I mean, not that Chipotle isn't healthy, but I feel like it has more sodium anyway.
Phil
But Sweet Green and Wework have an agreement, a partnership. So in a lot of Wework’s where Sweet Greens are in the city. They have a little rack dedicated to food pickup or food drop off. So people that we work, think right away, oh, well, I'll just get sweet green today. They're doing the delivery at one o'clock, whatever it is. And so those kinds of streamlining opportunities, really Smart View especially with your background in hospitality. And there's the you you actually studied environment. tole studies Did you was that what you're doing isn't?
Kate
Yeah, it's, um, and wildlife ecology and conservation.
Wow.
Phil
So I meant to say, it's so interesting, your background is so interesting that I think there's so many pieces there to pull from that make interesting narratives on social media. The other thought I had, I know we're hurling a lot at you, this is what we tend to do. Normally, you're just listening to it, but today, you're the subject welcome. The other thing to Kate is, I think, keep up your efforts on social media, particularly Instagram, because I do feel like your account has the potential to explode simply based on the creativity of what you bake. There are accounts with millions of followers on Instagram, because they do crazy baking challenges and recipes and stuff. So maybe think there I don't know if it's something that people could make at home, or it's something outrageous or something that gets a reaction. But those types of accounts do really well.
Lauren
I know, I love that we're like, Kate, what do you want to talk about? And she's like my brand, and we haven't even talked.
Phil
Let's talk about it.
Lauren
So anyway, anyway, yes, your visit, because branding and business are intertwined. But for your brand. This is the gap that I see, you have such creative flavors, as mentioned, like peanut butter Oreo, and lucky charms, and really, really, like a very modern interpretation of pastries, that I think that we could use more of a modern logo or wordmark, to help us understand that this isn't some kind of like, grandma inspired kitchen, this is like a forward thinker. So I was thinking of brands that that obviously come to mind like Milkbar that's such a modern interpretation of ice cream and baked goods and all that stuff. So I would definitely be inspired by their logo, as well. There's a brand by Chloe, which is pretty popular in Los Angeles. But it's all plant based foods, websites not so pretty, but you can see from their brand that is very big and modern font. And I was even thinking like Pinkberry, that kind of light, clean, modern, semi Scandinavian look, I think I'd love to see. And I do love your history with wildlife conservation and your commitment to sustainability, I was thinking that maybe there's an opportunity to create a logo mark that's like a bear or something cute because bears love honey, and they love sweet things. So maybe, and that could sort of tie it all together in a more of an abstract way. So that way, you're not just stuck with writing a sweet whim. Whenever you want to use your brand, you've got a logo mark that you can pull from
Kate
Nice, just a funny little thing. You have no idea that this is a thing at all. But my last name is brown. And when I first started dating my husband, I called him brown bear. Oh. So now we are like, like our house is like the brown bear den. And people like call us the brown bears. And oh my goodness. I've never talked about in my business at all. But Wow, funny that you said bear?
Lauren
Oh my gosh, I love that.
Phil
I also think a your brand is evolving. When I look through your Instagram feed I see the comments and the engagement you get you have an audience. I mean, sure it's not in the millions yet, I think it will be one day, but you have a loyal fan base. And I I guess I need you to take a step back and realize, really realize you don't need proof of concept.
You're not building that that's already been built. We already know it's an amazing product. We know it's great. We don't need any more reassurance. So when we think about brand, I think yeah, I think it right now it feels a little bit cutesy for a brand that's actually very creative and modern, particularly with your background and ties to hospitality, I think it could grow very big, very quickly. But at the same time, I think you don't necessarily have to scale and have 10 people making your Mac rounds.
I think there's an artistic, there's a creative, there's a chef and artisan element to what you do. It's like if we know that you're involved with that, and I think people are willing to pay a premium for that experience. I really believe that. So as you think about your visual brand, it might feel like it's time for an update. And I think something a little more modern. I kind of like the little marbling effect that you use. I think you could keep elements of that as a texture. that's indicative of your brand because that also hints it like the way in which you make them right with that little pokey needle thing right? So I kind of like that I would almost see that texture and always associate it with you. So I think you could keep that but I think you could start to move from like Lauren said kind of cutesy grandma aesthetic to like, this is a real business. And now it's time to put that out there. That's us giving you some tough love to motivate you.
Kate
No, I like it.
Lauren
It's not really tough love. I just I think that your brand has a very clear personality and your photography, and it has a very clear personality and you and now it's just a matter of making the brand match what the the actual brand is.
Phil
Because your website's great, it's easy to navigate, it's easy to understand. It's just a matter now of going okay, first acknowledging that this is real, this is happening, people love it, and it has the potential to grow. So what does that look like now? I think you've earned yourself the ability to upgrade that in some way, shape, or form. If you have a graphic designer help you. Listen back to this episode. And note all pieces of advice we gave you. work.
Lauren
Also, our spoiler alert, we're gonna be launching a program to help people brand themselves probably within the next few months, too. So we'll keep you posted on that as well and you get to work with us.
Kate
That would be awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean, ever since I, obviously I started my business and I didn't know anything about branding at all. I knew it was important. And then I was like, okay, I need to learn more about this. And that's essentially how I found you guys. And I've kind of done everything myself in a way I had someone helped me with my logo, but it was like a, these are the elements I like, but it was, I was so new to my business that I didn't know how to portray exactly what I wanted, or have that person know me enough to know the aspects that would be important to develop my brand. So it was one of those things that was like, alright, well, this is my logo. And I knew that like, eventually I would not necessarily rebrand, but evolve.
Lauren
So that's the case with pretty much every business we work with.
Phil
We've evolved over the years if I showed you what my first logo look like, I'm glad this is a podcast so that I don't have to visually show you but it was like my name written in cursive inside a TV and the TV have like these old vintage ears, like antenna things so strange.
Listen, we all have to start somewhere. And you should be very proud of the brand that you have now. And we're just giving you ideas, little challenges to visually grow with the expansion. This has been so fun. Can you believe half an hour has already passed? What I have had this idea in my noggin, Lauren Moore can confirm for at least a year. This is something I wanted and I was like okay, now's the time to finally do it. I'm going to casually message Kate. Hey, can we chat really quick on Thursday?
Kate
Oh man totally blindsided.
Phil
Yay, I was my goal. We pulled it off. What a surprise.
Lauren
Phil loves a surprise.
Kate
I think now that of course, now that we're halfway into it. I'm like, Oh, I don't think I'm going to throw up anymore.
Phil
No you’re not gonna throw up and you know where to find us if you have more questions. This is our creative way of saying thank you for being such a loyal listener to Brand Therapy. And I think this episode has been fun for everyone, including the listener. Except you as a listener listening back to this are probably cringing because you probably hate the sound of your own voice. But you're gonna have to get over that too.
Kate
Yeah, I think everyone does. But I will definitely be giving this listen with a notebook and a pen.
Phil
Love it. Okay, it's transcribed and make some notes for you. There's an idea. Kate, we appreciate you a sweet when everyone needs to go check out this brand. I'm telling you if you if you get the opportunity to taste these macarons they are freaking amazing.
Listen, we've had such a blast with you on Brand Therapy. We appreciate you. Thank you for being such a loyal listener.
Lauren
Thanks so much Kate.
Kate
Thank you. It's been a blast.
