130. How do you stand out? (f. Barbara Barna Abel)
Wish you could make a splash every time you enter a meeting? 🌊 If the answer is yes, you’re in for a treat! In this exciting Brand Therapy episode, hosts Phil and Lauren meet with casting director, on-camera coach, media trainer, and podcaster Barbara Barna Abel to dish on all things presence. As a dynamic force in the entertainment industry, Barbara has a refreshing perspective on personal development, finding your X-factor, creating presence, and evolving as a brand. Don’t miss this episode!
Episode transcription
Phil
Hello there, welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand, position, build and promote your brand. I don't know that I've ever sung it. But I feel like I might just do that again, because it actually turns into a jingle very well, Lauren Moore.
Lauren
Yeah, jingles are your secret specialty. I don't think people understand. Phil's does a song for me
Phil
I do
Lauren
every single call that we have. Before we let clients onto the zoom call, Phil will do a little jingle and then I let them in. It's part of our creative process.
Phil
It's part of our creative process. It's part of how we just welcome in the day. And I'm just going to tell you, we're about to welcome in the most incredible, roughly 30 minute conversation with one of my absolute, look at my eyeballs, there's no sense of exaggeration here listener you can't look, but I need you to feel them in this moment, no ounce of exaggeration that our guest today is one of my favorite human beings on this planet. Maybe even Barbara is going to be lucky enough to get her jingle, her own jingle by the end of this record. Promise that might happen. I'm going to be cooking it up in the background while we have this incredible conversation.
Barbara Barna Abel is so many things. She's a media coach, she has given career starts to some of the honestly some of the biggest people in television and media in the landscape here in the wall here. I sit here in the US even though I'm in Colombia, but in the US. People like Amy Schumer, people like Chrissy Teigen, people like Jake Tapper on CNN, Jeff Probst, host of Survivor, Carson Kressley, the list goes on. There are so many people, and yet that is a fraction of what this incredible woman does.
We've done workshops together, she is one of the nicest, nicest people in an industry full of scaries. And if I had to summarize, one of the things that I love so much about Barbara, is that in an industry that's often portrayed on television, because it is so larger than life, media, television, it is kind of scary. Barbara is a ray of sunshine at all times. And so welcome, Barbara, I told you, I wouldn't say everything I needed to say in the intro, but that if I had to boil it down to what I seriously just love about you, is how positive and optimistic and happy you are in a scary industry. Welcome to Brand Therapy,
Barbara
I have never felt so welcomed anywhere in my life. That was really beautiful. Phil, thank you. And Lauren, it's so nice to meet you here. After all this time, no one has ever promised me a jingle before. So I'm completely overcome by this as well. I am just tickled to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was really lovely.
Phil
It's all true.
Lauren
I have about a thousand questions, though. I know that Phil obviously has a branding angle that he wants to take with this, but I have more of a personal development type of angle, because I know that you are a coach as well, and that's a big part of what you do and your approach to casting.
So the concept of X Factor is something that has always really interested me. And you know that that at least pre COVID, there were times where you could walk into a room or a restaurant and there was just someone who had this energy that was captivating in any room that you go to. And so I'm curious to know, just in general, do you think it's possible for anyone to have an X Factor? Or is it something that you're born with?
Barbara
I love the question. Short answer. Yes, you can develop your X Factor.
Phil
That's good news.
Lauren
Can you tell me how?
Barbara
Yes. So historically, one of the first times I ever understood this was working with celebrities back in the day, I ran the talent development department at VH, and that included doing a lot of celebrity bookings. And I quickly came to realize and also in the music business, how many famous people can turn it on and off. Because when you turn it off, is when you can walk around outside and have a quasi normal life. And I've seen people do it all the time. And then as needed, blink of an eye, snap of a finger, turn it on, and you feel it.
I remember once a bajillion years ago being on set at VH1 in Aman walked in the room, but everyone had their backs to her we were facing forward. I don't know looking at the set, she walked in and you could actually feel her walk in the room. Like literally everyone turned their head and you're just like, wow. So it's the first time of my life I felt like whoa, that's somebody who was not even on stage because usually performers when they're on stage or during thing, it's all pushing outward. That was just this extraordinary woman walking literally, you know on a concrete floor, over a bunch of cables, and I was just like, wow.
But to get to the core of your question. There's a fantastic book I highly recommend called The Charisma Myth by a researcher named Olivia Fox Cabane. I talk about her all the time, it makes all my clients read this book. I picked it up years ago, because I had the exact same question that you have Lauren, I was like, are you born with this? Can you develop this, because I really wanted to believe that people could develop it, because otherwise, I thought, this is depressing. And I should just, you know, roll up my shingle, it was just a lucky few. And she's a very strong believer that we can all develop it. And so there's a whole process. She just breaks it down to three characteristics, or three values, if you will, presence, power, and warmth. And I do whole workshops on this, so I can't go into it and a half an hour, but we all have a default setting. She has lots of exercises around that.
But the other thing for anybody listening is one is just to, you know, stop. And A, you have to sort of buy in and believe that like, you know what this is possible, I can develop as a human being, I am not a finite static lump of clay, I can often choose to evolve and grow. And there are lots of ways we do that. And B a big thing that we talk about, and I have a feeling that you get into this in your branding, is to identify what are your superpowers. What do you do really, really, really well? What are your amazing attributes, what makes you amazing, and a lot of times those things, by the way, are really surprising to people. I'll say, maybe you're really good friend, you might be an amazing listener. You're a fantastic collaborator. There's so many things that are not skill based or super dynamic bass, just things that you do really well.
And there's another person I love too called Sally Hogshead, who has the best assessment called How to Fascinate, which by the way, I am a Sally hogshead affiliate now because I got trained, I'm so into it. And her whole thing is to find it, her definition of superpowers is what are your core advantages? And the whole idea is don't be someone else be the best version of you. That was a long winded answer. But the whole idea is yes, you can. So the first thing is, is deciding that yes, you do, and then find out what you do really well and go do more of that. And then there are techniques around how to turn things on and off, how to set the temperature in the room, how to understand what your energetic perception is at any given moment, and how to dial that up and dial that down. Body language connection. Understanding that everything we do as communicators is a transference of energy tap into that.
Phil
Sally Hogshead was on my email list for a long time and the day she unsubscribe was the saddest day of my life.
Barbara
So I have to tell you, she liked one of my tweets recently. And I was just over the moon for a day.
Phil
Yeah, I've been there. I've been there.
Barbara
We'll get Sally back.
Lauren
She's a heartbreaker.
Phil
Well, it's fine. I unsubscribe from emails also. So my feelings are hurt, but I'm still more excited that she knows who I am. Because we are also a big fan of her. I no big fan of you. Here's what I want your commentary on the media landscape. I know you do so much more than television. But that really is such a sexy component of the world that you've experienced. And really, Barbara, you are a gatekeeper, which is traditionally a scary word, but you have made the careers of a lot of very important people. Can you give me some commentary of how that landscape has evolved in the last few years, even over the last few years? If you want to go there, how that has evolved from the days of you being like, okay, audition, audition, audition, there's the person television career to now virtual COVID / post COVID. Give me some commentary on where we're at right now.
Barbara
One, it depends on how you define television. Right? When I started, it was cable was young. So yeah, your big three networks and Fox was young. And then we had some young cable. Now, it's digital technology. If you can watch it on your giant smart television does that make it TV even though it's home is digital, or it's an Ott or you shot it yourself and you just plugged it in? So that right away, we have to redefine what does television mean to you. But into your bigger thing, the barrier to entry is almost eliminated, correct? Any of us can create content post it today, and I can watch your YouTube video content on my television. Now you're on TV. So you don't need anyone to get you on TV. What you need is you Phil, to help you break through the noise. So someone will notice that you're on TV now. And that is a giant shift.
So it has its ups and downs. I actually think it's fantastic, right? Because what happens is you work with me and you work with you, Phil, because now you start to understand is go where the opportunities are. maximize what you do. Think about your message. Understand how you stand out and how you fit in. Back in when I started, it was all about fitting in. I talked about this all the time. But I started in TV, if you looked a certain way, kind of like an American Girl doll, and could wear a jewel toned a line dress and read a teleprompter, you could be on TV and the male equivalent. Those were the only people who were allowed to be on TV. And then now we can all be on TV, which is a really, really, really wonderful thing. And then it's like, go find your tribe of 1000. The big thing now is how hard it is to get eyeballs and then understanding for you and your business and what your goals are, how do you make money, why are you doing this, and what kind of validation you're looking for? Also how do you engage and the importance of being amazing in your niche and the power of being hyper niche. Because the ability to be a household name anymore is so difficult, right?
We could all talk about people who have enormous engagement. I mentioned Philip DeFranco all the time, he was the second person to get to a billion views. I'm a huge, huge fan. Most people don't know who he is. And yet he's massive and has had a massive amount of influence in digital communication. But it's like really hard to get to be Beyonce or whoever that is, very few people break through. Chrissy Teigen, Andy Cohen, they're unicorns for having really broken through a cable in the last decade or so. And also to crossover. Because you know, if your cable watch your big names and reality TV, if you don't watch that you don't know who they are.
Lauren
Yeah. So do you have any thoughts or theories of what makes those unicorns different from the people who stay a bit more niche?
Barbara
Well, part of it is opportunity. But things I could say that I know both of them have in common, one incredible work ethic, two been doing this a really, really, really, really, really long time and stayed with it and have evolved, and had I don't know if I've got so far as ups and downs, but really, really, really evolved seeing opportunity. I mean for having worked with Chrissy, I can tell you how hard she worked behind the scenes, and all the things she's done and stayed with it. So you can feel like oh my god, she just burst in the scene one day, and I can't imagine a world without her. But really, she shows up every day. Amazing.
And the same thing with Andy. I mean, he started as a producer, news working. I mean, I just don't think he sleeps. And he's amazing. And I mean, he'll forget more than I'll ever know. I mean, he's just incredible. And they're both remarkably generous, like really, really great, friendly, warm, generous, great colleagues, people you want to have on your set.
So I think that's part of the secret to longevity, too, is being a relationship builder. Somebody that people want to work with. On the other hand, if you look at people who shine bright, and then you don't hear from them again, it may be because the relationship side wasn't there.
Lauren
Mm hmm. Yeah. I also think of, at least with Chrissy Teigen, obviously, I don't know her personally, but I'm a huge fan of hers. I think that she's, it's cool because she's very authentic. And she's kind of a chameleon. She can go from sexy Sports Illustrated model to hilarious tweeter. But it all feels very genuine, because I think she's very self aware.
Barbara
And you know, when she started doing that her tweeting, it was risky. I can't imagine there was anyone at ING at the time going in when she first started going, yep, go say some more outrageous stuff. But it worked for her. And I also can we just have a moment for John Legend? Because first of all, they're one of my favorite couples on the planet, but it speaks volumes about him, how long they've been together, and how at ease he is, as a man with such a extraordinary woman. It says a lot about the relationship. So it's really cool.
Lauren
That says a lot. Okay, you mentioned for self awareness and to figure out and embrace your own X Factor, to start figuring out what it is that you're naturally really good at. Are there any other questions that you encourage your clients and or people who attend your workshops to ask themselves to get to know themselves a bit better?
Barbara
Yes. And something that Phil says often is you find out what you love, and then you find out what the world needs. And then you hope for the Venn diagram and that where do these things intersect? But there are lots of questions. You know, it's like, what do you love, love, love, love, love, love, love to do you know, what would you do? You know, what would you do if money was no object or you didn't work? I mean, I can say this for me, and this goes back even a long time, twenty something years being on a panel years ago, okay, this is what I did.
When I got out of college, and I was unemployed. I watch TV. I read magazines, and I talked on the phone. Then I got a job at VH1 where they paid me money to watch TV, read magazines and talk on the phone and tell them this person needs to be on TV. I mean, that's literally I got paid to do that. Now, I have a job where I get paid to watch all sorts of content TV, I read not just magazines, but now I read blogs and social media posts and I talk on the phone sometimes but mostly talk by zoom or in person or via email, or text. I still do the same thing. It's just like, what am I good at, right? And my core brand values are bossy, nurturing, and helpful.
Phil
Have you ever met someone more magnetic, Lauren?
Lauren
No, I'm all about Barbara.
Barbara
Oh, I'm all right back atcha. But, I mean, you get what I'm saying. And so then, one things I say to my professional client, so what I meant by that is people who have businesses are interacting with people a lot of time and get a lot of feedback, go back and read every email, you've gotten the nice ones? And what do people consistently say about you? There's so much information there that you can call, same way your social posts are immediate proof of concept, what do people respond to what resonates.
So there's a lot of information already out there. So you're not necessarily starting from scratch. You can also do those 360 surveys or whatever you want to do. But sometimes that's a little challenging, too, because I find being on the receiving end of those, it's hard to get people who are super honest, or understand really how to answer some of those questions. It's like I'm very anti crowdsourcing your headshot for instance. Because I wouldn't go to my Facebook group and say, Do you think I need medical attention? Because none of them are doctors. So why would I go out to people who aren't in the industry and ask them which photo I should use. And that's not to say your friends are awesome. But what they're going to do is choose the photo that feels most likely to them, which is not necessarily the photo that works best to people who don't know you. What's going to make the best first impression about you. So that's why you want to ask people who have a critical eye, not a mean eye, but understand critically like, how does this look? How does this represent your brand is saying about you what you want to say about yourself?
Lauren
Not only are you a business owner, but you're a business owner in a really, really challenging hyper competitive industry? I want to know, how's your business always gone smoothly? Or have there been hiccups and or learning moments along the way? What could our listeners learn from you in terms of owning your own business in a very competitive industry?
Barbara
It's a really generous question. So big yes to the hiccups, it gets to the speed bumps, we're gonna go all the way into giant dips, peaks and valleys. So yes, because big things happen, technology happens, shifts in the marketplace happen. And this happens for any business. And you have to learn to adapt, or pivot, which is one of those contemporary words. And sometimes you have to learn to read the tea leaves to understand what's an actual change versus just a blip or a momentary trend, and the difference between chasing trends and finding something that's quality and represents you and that you can stick with that.
So yes, I have so big things happened to me one, when I started my business in 2001, on my own, and I was strictly doing casting, and this is pre social media, I had no competition. I was it on the east coast. And then I, Marki Costello and Carol Barlow on the west coast, and we were all friends and super supportive, then. And that was fabulous for a number of years. But then a lot of stuff changes, technology changes, the type of programming changed, and we got much more into docu soaps, and the needs shifted, and it was about casting producers less about casting directors. So it's no longer the flavor. And then the stock market crash happened in 2008, which impacted me in more 2009/10 because budgets are figured out in advance. So the following year is when everybody was feeling the pinch. And it became sort of like, you know, we're gonna get rid of writers we’ll stop paying talent, what do we really need a casting director for? So there was that, and that's one of the first times I actually started getting into the coaching side. But I was just a optimistic creative. So I didn't know things like income stream, and the coaching business that came to me just sort of, like dribbled in, but I started to understand, like, I'm good at this, and the business kept coming my way.
And then there was, I don't know, there was sort of a big dip in 2015/16. In my business, like everybody in the casting side was hit. And many of us transitioned out. Not a lot of us stayed. I mean, a lot of people either transitioned to being producers or other part of the business or just left the business entirely. So I stayed with it, but that's when I really got serious about your points. Like I need to learn a lot about business that I never needed to know before.
Because just to give you a little bit of historical historical background, when I was at MTV Networks, business and creative were so separate, they were in different buildings. Now, to succeed, we all need to know business. It's one of my regrets. And I'm always playing catch up. And I have this fantasy dream that I'm going to get my executive MBA from Harvard, because my ego would love to like hang my shingle somewhere, but I just really, really believe in it. And another sidebar, infinite gratitude that one of my clients is the business network Chatter News. I learned so much every day from them about the markets about investing about running a business about being an entrepreneur. So again, segway a book I highly recommend for everyone is Scott Belsky, The Messy Middle, which is an incredible book for founders. And you don't have to be a founder, you're just if you're you, you're the founder of your own business. You're a solopreneur. And just the chapter headlines alone are amazing to help give you direction.
So with all that, yes, so I had like lots of hiccups and ups and downs. And so during that sort of 2015, like what's going on? Honestly, I was at, I was at the New York women and film and television luncheon sitting next to some fellow casting directors, and they're like, how are you? I'm like, I'm great. And they're like, no, really, how are you doing because we're in real estate now. Like, wow, and that was for something I understood. I was traveling solo down the what the hell's going on highway. And that's when I decided to go get certified as professional coach, which I love.
And one of the reasons to from the business point of view is I can now go hustle my own business. I am not at the mercy of the marketplace, and mergers and private equity, and all sorts of crazy stuff that happens in the media business that trickles down. I'm not the decider, I'm just a happy collaborator, but I'm a cog in the wheel. When it comes down to coaching and creating my own content and these products and who I want to collaborate with, and content that I'm producing, now, I am my own driver, and I love it. So I did what I now teach other people to do is to stop, take stock, audit yourself, figure out what I was really good at, who needs what I do, and then go out and learn how to communicate that better. How to create products, find people who can help me execute in the areas that I am not good at executing. And then, through happenstance, I just wound up being like remarkably well positioned for the pandemic, because I had a virtual business.
Phil
It's familiar.
Barbara
What do I do all day long, for years, I talk to people on zoom, so then I just turned around and taught everyone else how to be on zoom, which I love. I mean, I was really happy to be available. It was a great year for me. I know, Phil, and I've spoken about that before. And it's sometimes I'm a little shy about saying that, but it's like I tripled my coaching business during the pandemic.
Lauren
Oh, that's amazing.
Phil
I’m so happy. Because you deserve that. You deserve that you are a perpetual student. You're always learning. You're always reading. This is why knew the two of you would get along so well. Barbara is always learning with, honestly, you mentioned your ego a second ago, and I just think that you don't have an ego you operate without an ego. And if you have one, you hide it. And this is so unique in the media business. And this is what I've always loved about you. I tell people, you've got to meet Barbara. She is the ray of sunshine in a scary industry. There's you've named some people that I have worked with, and I'm familiar with, and they are not that way. And I have no qualms saying that out loud. And you've always been like, Wizard of Oz. It's like there's good witches and bad witches. Barbara is the kind empowered Good Witch of television. And I am so happy to see you succeed.
So we have to talk about your new podcast, Camera Ready & Abel. I mean, come on. That name is so good. I crack up. See every time I even read it or say it. I had the privilege of having the most amazing conversation with you on the podcast a few days ago we recorded it. And something I've been thinking about Barbara since we spoke, because that hour flew by so fast was in this applies to you, it is so important to be likeable. It is so important to be someone that people want to be around. I've been thinking about this since we spoke, I believe that it's contributed to our success as a business simply being people that are nice and people that our clients choose and pay to be around. And I would say before now opening it up to commentary from you that you're exactly the same way. You could have pivoted in any really kind of direction that you wanted. And people would still be wanting you in their court. It wouldn't matter how we classified it or categorized it, you would still be someone that people wanted to be around because you're likeable.
Barbara
Wow. Thank you. Well, that's a really lovely thing to say. But actually can I challenge you which is such a coachy thing to say. Yes on the likeability not that that's not important, but one of the things I've learned from my good friend Olivia Fox Cabane, my virtual buddy, she doesn't know that I exist, is that likeability when we think it from a presenting point of view, that's inward facing if we're worried about being liked, right. But if we're showing up with integrity, and we're generous, and we're warm, and we're kind, that's then we don't need to worry about it because we can't control how things are received.
So instead, think about making an impact or the value you bring to others. And so when you're focused on the value you bring to your clients, that's why the likeability comes back to you because you're actually focused on their needs, not the reaction to your services. So you're not worried or focused on how are they going to react to the presentation, I just get you're like, I'm just so here for your business. And I so want you to succeed that here you go, and you're completely outward facing.
And so I often tell people, regardless of what you're doing, people don't show up for my perfect, people don't show up for my likeable necessarily, they do show up, though, makes up to make them feel good, right? If you feel safe in the space, you feel heard you feel you're in a place that you can be creative. But at the end of the day, we show up for the value that other people bring. And so that goes back large in part of the part of your question is understand what what's your value? And we all have it, I really can't stress that enough. It's not that some people bring value and others don't. It's gets going back to one of Phil's core messages, is understanding what are you really good at? What is the market need? That's when you start tapping into what's your value? What value do you bring, which is more than just providing a service, it gets into how do you make people feel.
And when we're worried about being likeable, we're diminishing our charismatic presence. Right? Because that's inward facing, because what happens is, your presence plus being warm can be likeable. But if you're not harnessing your power, you're not charismatic, and many of us because we want to be liked, give away your power. We're worried about that. Because we associate power with negative thoughts when power is just like owning your space. celebrating your awesome unapologetically. Now you're charismatic.
Phil
I love that perspective. Our friendship is like a good improv. It's always ‘Yes, and, I'm always like, and Barbara said, and then she said, and like Barbara always says, and you did the same thing in this podcast. You and I together for a workshop people, I jokingly said they better buckle their seat belts because when you and I get started, it’s very hard to stop.
Barbara
Wait, can we go down memory lane and tell Lauren about the time that you get stuck in Chicago?
Lauren
I remember that.
Barbara
We were so ahead of the curve, that Phil did the entire workshop via Skype full screen on my Mac desktop, which people now would think like, that's no big deal. But at the time that was like, can we pull this off? And we did.
Lauren
Wasn’t that during the the lightning storm Phil?
Phil
It was a hail storm. And so the flight, it was the craziest, craziest thing. It was just a simple flight from Chicago to New York, a simple Flight, an easy route. And I went through this period where I had the worst luck with flights, even on simple routes, simple common routes, I was stuck in Chicago for 24 hours. I ended up checking into a hotel, to be able to get WiFi to be able to do the workshop virtually. And actually, Barbara when I reflect on that I think my experience of that workshop would have been really not that different from how I experienced it. I felt like I was there. I was able to you know, I wrote I sketched a little drawing of where each person was sitting and I wrote down their names so we made it work.
And again, this is an example like Barbara could have been so super stressed out that I wasn't able there to make it and you were like Barbara, you're like you know what, we're gonna make this work. And that just allowed me to breathe and go, you know what, we can pull this off and we did. We always have so much fun together.
Barbara
It really did. It was fun.
Phil
Here's what I feel like. I feel like people have listened to this podcast episode, which means they listen to podcasts, which means they need to hop over right now and listen to yours. Where can people find you and get more from you Barbara, including the brand new podcast?
Barbara
So the podcast home is on PodBean, Camera Ready & Abel it's also on all your favorite podcast platforms, so thanks for the plug. So that's you know, apple, podcast, Spotify, Google, Audible, Twitter, on and on and on and on. And also on my website, which is abelintermedia.com that's where you can find out about classes coaching, there's a podcast page. I'm also on all the socials except I’m not on TikTok, but I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, barbaraunderscorebunderscoreabel, which I kind of love because there's actually a Barbara Abel who's, I don't know police writer or something like a crime writer in Europe. So she had my name so I had to go with the empowerment named Barbara B Abel which I kind of love now that I'm Twitter I've been on Twitter so long that I'm Barbara Barna, and on Facebook I have a really fun abel intermediate community group, which I really encourage people to join because it's lively and friendly and really really really generous. And I don't know where else I am. Oh I also have a book on how to break into TV. And oh, just one more plug. I also have a really fun free download on my website, which is my 12 tips for success on camera and off.
Phil
From zoom to TV, right?
Barbara
From zoom to the today show.
Phil
Yeah, that's it. The Zoom to the today's show. I love this. I love everything. Do I love any excuse that we get to chat? I think I've made that clear to our listeners that I'm a big BBI fan.
Barbara
Thank you. Right back atcha.
Phil
Thank you for spending your valuable minutes with us on Brand Therapy. We just totally appreciate you and you're welcome back anytime. Thank you, Barbara.
Barbara
Thank you for having me.
