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Have you ever wondered how people secure sponsored content deals? 💵 You're about to find out! In this informative episode, Brand Therapy hosts Phil and Lauren get the scoop on all things brand deals from business coach Jenny Melrose. Jenny is an expert in helping entrepreneurs and bloggers scale their business, which includes owning their influence through brand sponsors. Her insight will teach you how to transition your blog from hobby to business, create meaningful business goals, build multiple income streams, and get paid for posting online. If you want to make more money (and let's be real: who doesn't?), then this episode is for you!

Phil

Hello, welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.

Lauren

And I'm Lauren.

Phil

And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. I gotta tell you something. I'm happy you're here. I say that probably almost every episode but I'm really, really, truly happy you're here because you chose an episode where you get to sit in on a conversation with quite literally one of my very very bestest of best business BFFs. Who quite frankly, should have been on our podcast way sooner than this and I don't know why that hell It's taken me this long to send an email to the sweetest Jenny Melrose to say, come join us on Brand Therapy. So I might as well say now, Jenny, Jenny Melrose because I always include your last name when I address you. Welcome freaking Welcome to Brand Therapy. We're so happy to have you here.

Jenny

I am so excited to be here.

Phil

It's so hard for me to limit all of the amazing things I can say about us so that we actually have time to get to a conversation. So that was intro part one. Now let's do intro part two, where we tell people who the heck you are. I know. Jenny Melrose and I are in constant communication because we are BFF we’ve become BFF. I go to Jenny with all of my great triumphs and challenges in business. And I'm lucky to have the same trust from her as we navigate this world. Jenny, we met at everything food years ago, we've worked together, you've sent us clients, I've referred people to you. We run a mastermind together a closed mastermind with a handful of amazing people. You I said very publicly and proudly to my email list and my Instagram and everywhere else has dropped that you're one of the smartest people I know when it comes to a lot of things, including what we're talking about today is this idea of being an influencer now, and moving forward. And I think and I know Lauren's interested in this topic, too, is like not necessarily the exclusivity of just being an influencer, but you probably do something else as well. You could be a blogger, you could be a brand strategist like me, I just, I can't wait to dive into this topic. I learned recently from you that brands this year are spending significantly more money on budgets for what we would call influencers or creators. I know some people prefer the term creators. So I guess to kick us off, Jenny, this is a pretty exciting time to be considering this if you haven't already, as a vertical of your business or as a potential income stream, right?

Jenny

Absolutely. Yes. I think you said something that was interesting, where you said an influencer or if you consider yourself a creator. Because I think what has happened as of probably the last year and a half, especially as TikTok has grown, is that influencers have gotten this negative connotation. I think that's why I've always said you're not an influencer entrepreneur, you're a business owner. And I think when you have everything aligned, where you talk about positioning, and you know what you're trying to do with your business, that it doesn't just become that negative influencer, that does the duck faces and doesn't really understand his or her audience, but actually really has a connection with your audience. And that's where I think it has definitely shifted.

Brands want to work with those not that have huge followings. They want to work with those that actually engage and know who their people are and why their people keep coming to them. So that's really honestly what brands are looking for right now.

Lauren

I'm going to put you on the spot, Jenny, because I'm just so fascinated by this intersection you're talking about between influence and entrepreneurship. By the way, no

Phil

No one knows it better than Jenny Melrose. Sorry to interject, but no one knows this better than Jenny Melrose no one.

Lauren

So Jenny, obviously, you are kind of a shining example of what an influencer entrepreneur is yourself. I have a feeling that kind of like what Phil does. You probably test things and tactics and strategies on your own brand before then sharing it with the public. So you mentioned how it's important to know your audience and I want to ask you, who is your audience? What do they care about?

Jenny

Such a great question. I love that. So my audience is primarily female entrepreneurs that are really trying to understand how they can bring their game forward. Online. I have so many people that are trying to under on social media, but awesome, then understand how to connect a blog or website or podcast and all of the pieces of how they intertwine and can then scale it to really become a full time gig. I think a lot of people hear influencer or they hear blogger or podcasts or even and they assume, oh, they're just doing that as a hobby. It's not really income that's coming in that significant income, when in reality, I mean, five years ago, six years ago, actually now I replaced a teaching salary on being a blogger being an influencer. And this was there weren't any products yet, this was just primarily working with brands and showing them how my small but engaged audience was a perfect fit for that. So I think that it's really them trying to understand how they can move their business forward and figure out the different ways that they can improve their revenue streams.

Lauren

So this always happens on the episodes where I'm particularly interested in what basically I'm going to completely take over the question, and then Phil's gonna have to gonna have to button when I take a breather. Okay, so figuring out how to make all those pieces work together, like your audience, I feel like is completely aligned with the challenges that our podcast listeners face. So just to start things off, I'm wondering, is there a kind of a balance or a ratio that you recommend with working for your business versus working on your business, meaning more like working for your business, like making it operate versus working on like, getting the word out and working on your content.

Jenny

So I think it really depends upon your journey and the stage that you're at, and how you're approaching your business. If you're doing it as a side hustle. If you're doing it full time, it can look very different. But I struggle to say the word balanced, because it still knows I don't believe that actually is a word that exists, especially when you're trying to combine your personal life and whatever else goes on mom, kids, whatever that looks like. But I really think that it's important that you kind of have to have a plan in place. Understanding who your audience is, knowing where you're looking to help them and to solve their problems, to then be able to put it into action. Because one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is they just start putting out content with no intention behind it. They've no idea where they're growing, they're trying to just throw what spaghetti against the wall and see if it sticks. When reality you have to know your people and who you're trying to actually attract to that so that you can make sure that you're in line and working towards an actual goal of where you want your business to go to.

Lauren

How do you recommend people figure out what their business goals are?

Jenny

So I would start off with, I mean, depending upon where you are, if you have just small, even just a tiny audience, whether it's an Instagram account, whether However, you can kind of talk to people trying to understand what problems they're interested in having you solve, and having these conversations and trying to get into the depth of like, what it is you see yourself being an expert in. Personally, when I started blogging in 2000, and oh my god, nine, I feel like a dinosaur every time I say that, a long time ago, we just kind of put stuff out there. And it was a lot of that like sticking. But when I finally started to ask people here, what is it you're looking for? What are you struggling with an awesome tie that to what I was really good at. And I was really good at teaching. That was my background, I was an inter city school district teacher, but I didn't want to be putting up ABC lessons or teaching kids how to read. I wanted to kind of show adults how they could get time back with their kids.

And I think once I made that connection, that if I'm going to create a recipe, the purpose behind that recipe needs to be that they're going to get time back with their kids. And as long as I could always tie it back to that piece of what I was trying to get at everything kind of flow together and meet it's so much easier. So I think when you're trying to figure out that business plan, looking at yourself, talking to people and seeing what they see you as an expert, and what word comes to mind when they think of you. I think Phil and I actually had that conversation once about asking about the word that people come to mind.

And I had a client do this. And the interesting part to me with every single person that commented she did it on a personal Facebook page, the word kind kept coming up over and over and over again. And after I saw it, and I had a call with her afterwards. And I said it never would have thought to write that. But when I saw it, that's exactly what I think of when I think of you. It's how you talk. It's how you interact. It's how you write your content. So that needs to become almost this umbrella of your content and encompasses it and it gave her a purpose. So have that kind of purpose of where you're trying to go, it makes it that much easier to stay excited about your content, because it can be easy to get burnt out when you're trying to really get started and figure it out if it's not kind of hidden and pushed out with a passion.

Phil

This is such an exciting time to be having this conversation, Jenny, because we have had a real shift in our business from me, creating a community on Instagram from people I've met all over the world and conferences that have spoken, etc. But it was like when I fairly recently crossed that 20k mark of followers. Also, I should say, on YouTube, I started a year and a half ago. And that's been something I've been able to keep up consistently. But in the last few months, we've had a shift, where all of the things I've learned from you, instead of just pointing clients in the direction of that knowledge and amazingness that you share. Now I'm applying it to myself, because I am not even trying or outwardly seeking brand sponsorship or sponsored content. It's all coming directly to me. And at the time of recording this, I have a six week wait in sponsored content deals just purely from things that are inbound. So how first of all exciting is that, that now I get to actually implement some of the amazing things I've learned from you for our own business.

Lauren

But what I'll add here to is that it's becoming a significant income stream.

Phil

For us it's not the most yet or it's not even close to the most yet. But it's something right. And it's something I'm enjoying to stem from what you just said, I'm really enjoying diving into new tools and apps and AI and content and all this stuff that I would not otherwise be doing or prioritizing, but because it's become work, it's kind of fun. How can people start to experience that for themselves and not just wait to cross a magic number, as if it's like the banner at the end of a marathon that you run through? You know, I hit 20k. So brands are noticing me? I don't think you have to wait until 20k. Can you maybe talk about that how people can start doing this now. Because I'm living proof that this can become an income stream exactly what you've been talking about what you realize is blogging. I am realizing it now. And it's really exciting.

Lauren

And just to interject an income stream, that would be a normal salary. For someone working for a company like this isn't just one or $200 a month, this is a few posts for what could quite literally be an is someone salary out there. So just wanted to show the power of their guests.

Jenny

No, absolutely. I think that you said about that threshold of the 20,000. They start finding you especially they see that you have engagement and you're doing reels, and you're in stories, and you're creating content consistently. But you don't have to be huge in order to do that. And I think figuring out what brands are the best fit for you and your audience, and then letting them know you exist. There are tons and tons of people out there on Instagram and tick tock now as well since the pandemic and because of that, if you don't reach out to them yourself and let them know, Hey, this is my audience.

This is why it's a perfect fit for my audience. Not why you're the perfect fit, but your audience is the perfect fit for their brand. They then know that you exist and mature out there. And they could definitely see a potential relationship that can grow from that. I think a lot of people get held up with not even 20 they'll try to just get 10 because they think that swipe up is the magic key. And you know my feelings about swipe up. So we won't even get into that. But I've had people as few as 1000.

I have a client right now that has 500 followers on Instagram, and g is making close to five figures a month not just brand deals, but brand deals combined with also growing your client list and creating those relationships. It's really about how close knit you can get your community and not just see as I'm putting out a picture of me looking cute or in new shirt or whatever the product may be. But again, what problem does that thing that you're going to post about for that brand saw, that's where people make the biggest mistake. They forget that people don't care that you've got a new purse. Unless that purse has like a special pocket where moms can hide their treats from their kids or it charges your iPhone extra fast or something. It has to solve a problem and you have to be able to connect that to your audience, for the brands and also for your people. Because if they see you start doing a ton of sponsored content that has nothing to do with solving a problem for them, you're going to lose people

Lauren

Let's talk more about your tactics to get those brand deals. From what I've heard from people who get sponsored content opportunities, it's like, switches flipped, and all of a sudden brands start contacting them. That's what happened with Phil. That's what's happened with paleo MGS happened with my other friends who have brand deals. And it's not often that you hear about smaller creators doing the outreach themselves, which I know you have some tactics for. So first of all, do you recommend that someone just DMS on Instagram to brands say, like, Are there agencies that they should reach out to like, how does that even work?

Jenny

So I always recommend getting an email, it's great, especially if you have a large following to be able to to have a conversation in dm with a brand I wouldn't start off with, Hey, can I let's do sponsor work, like build the actual relationships a little bit like dating here, you have to actually show this isn't a one and done kind of thing that you're trying to reach out to them.

But I recommend looking at their website look and see, normally they'll have up in the menu bar media or press releases, and then whoever's creating the press release is usually the person that deals with influencer campaigns and their email address, it's always on the press release. Oh, I always recommend starting because a lot of times, especially if it's a larger company, you're not going to deal with someone on that large company, you're dealing with a PR agency that oversees these kind of campaigns. And a lot of times, there's nothing wrong with this, but they're younger, that are dealing with the influencer campaigns, their early 20s, late 20s thing are very transient from one job to the next.

So with that, in mind, pitching is very much trying to find the right person at the right time. So you have to continuously follow up, because you could have an email address that's correct from six months ago, and they could have moved to a totally different company to just continuing to send it out there, I recommend having something on your email, something where you can actually track to see how many times emails been open. If it's been passed along how many times it's been viewed, that way, you know how to follow up, when to follow up, and all of that that can go into it.

Lauren

Okay, that's fantastic. I'm going to want to go back to some of the outreach stuff. But first, I want to get to the money. So how does someone decide what to charge for sponsored content? And also, how do they justify it? Like, are there any analytics or data points that can help make that case?

Jenny

Yes, I feel like the only platform right now, that is somewhat consistent is Instagram. And that is honestly what most brands are looking for. Right now they are looking for Instagram, because there's Instagrams taken over so many other people's platforms that they can do everything all within one. And the insights and analytics are really good. So for Instagram, for every 10,000 followers, you can normally charge 100 bucks.

So if you're less than that, that doesn't mean that you can't charge, it just means you need to put together a package. It's not, I'm going to post once to my feed, and I have 2500 followers, and I'm only going to get paid $25 that doesn't seem like really worth my time, right. So instead, we're going to post your feed, you're going to do three stories, and you're going to do a reel, and reels right now we all know are being pushed out. That is what brands are looking for. Plus, it's some form of video. So normally even that person that has 2500, you could charge $200 for a reel, as long as you can show that you have engagement and you know your people. That's what I always have to go back to because I have had clients that have 100,000 followers, and they're not getting anything near what my people that have 500 followers are getting as far as engagement, the constant dming back and forth with your people, you have that you're ready to work with brands.

As far as other platforms, it gets a little bit stickier, like I let people do sponsor on my podcast, I don't do actual ads. I do an entire sponsored podcast episode. And it's a package deal. They pay to be on the interview. And the interview is always something relevant to solving a problem for my audience. And then we're also going to do a blog post that goes along with some social shares, and then normally an email to be able to put together that package price. The way that I always tell people is how long will it take you to do what you're going to do for them and try to figure out what would you want to be charged an hourly rate, especially when you're talking about people that are smaller, that don't have these 10 2030 100,000 followers.

And the other one that everyone is asking about and is very much the Wild Wild West is TikTok because some people have seen astronomical growth so quickly, and don't have it supported on other platforms. So it's a little bit more more difficult to say. Or if you have 2 million, this is what I charge. It's the way that I've always figured out pricing. The way I tell people to figure out pricing is put together a package proposal, you say, I'm going to charge you one price for your deliverables. If they say yes, immediately, within 24 hours, your price is too low, you have to up your price. If they come back, and they're like, we can't really do that. I always say, do a package. Because if they come back, and most of them will, unless your price is too low. You know, if you set for 500, I'll do this package, and you then get Nope, we can only for 250, you take out pieces of the package, so that it's worth 250. To you. I have a thing that I've always said to people is that you have to know your hate rate. And the hate rate is your rate at which you'll hate yourself for having worked on that brand or for that price. So really understanding like, what is your bottom line? Like if it's gonna take you three hours? What would you be willing to get paid hourly, and really taking a look at it that way? And then as you continue to grow, it's only going to go off?

Phil

Wow, do you now see why I spend so much time with this woman?

Lauren

I know. And it's never just Jenny. It's always Jenny Melrose when you're talking about her.

Phil

And in person, dinners we've been sitting there she has always Jenny, Mel rose. Because it sounds like a TV name. It's like the protagonists character of a TV show like Jenny Melrose. It's so good. It's just Yeah, it's a good name, that you can't just go with the first name is just to Hollywood to exclude. I just love all the practical advice that you give people. It's like, you don't just generally answer the question you're like, here's exactly how to do it. And we just so appreciate that. That's not a question. It's a statement of appreciation.

Lauren

I have another question. Okay, back to audience building and understanding who your audience is. I want to know if you have any other recommendations for how someone can really figure out what their audience wants, I think of some of our clients who they're kind of ticking off the boxes, they're doing all the right things, they've got the posts that are branded, but those posts are just kind of falling flat. And there's obviously a bit of a disconnect between what an audience member wants and what they're delivering. So how can someone figure out how to make that connection?

Jenny

I love this question, because it lets me talk about my favorite thing. I said before that I hate swipe up. And I'm not a fan of it because I want you in Instagram stories to be present to be the person in front of the camera talking to people, it's no more I feel like can’t just hide behind the brand of a company as entrepreneurs, you have to get your face out there, they have to be able to connect with you.

People do business with Bill, because they loved him. They know that he's going to bring his creativity, he's going to bring his energy and people are going to want to work with him because of that. It's the same thing for an influencer. Or for someone that even has a brick and mortar store or real estate agent or a therapist, using stories to do this is one of the easiest ways and just getting on and talking to them always going back again, to what's the problem I'm trying to solve. What's my level of expertise.

So the best example I can give to this is I had one client, this is years ago, she was a blogger kind of did like style a little bit all over the place sometimes. But she kept saying to me, I don't know what my expertise is. And I looked at her and I said, Okay, I said, remind me again, how many kids you have. And she kind of like gave me got frustrated with me. And she was telling me, you know, I have 10 kids and I'm pregnant with the 10th kid. And I was like, Uh huh, right. Remind me again, where did they go to school? And again, she got frustrated with me and said, you know, why homeschool my kids? I'm a huge fan of friends. It was like that Joey Tribbiani moment. We were like waiting for her to connect the dots. I just sat back and waited for it. And she looks at me and goes, I'm a mom of 10 kids a homeschool and I do budgeting. That's your expertise and glory. things should lie underneath that.

That's just what you do. And when you're talking to people, that's what you're trying to tie it back to so when you're doing stories, ask them questions about like their grocery bill and what is it that they find they spend the most money on? You have to talk to your people.

And I love love stories because the poll feature, you can actually have them check off a box. Now the biggest mistake that I see people doing polls is they'll do a poll. And then they leave it alone. And they just say, Oh 67% of my audience that they struggle with this. Well, this percentage only struggled with that. Here's the thing, why not continue that conversation, you can see in your insights, when you swipe up on that poll on that story, who clicked bought? Now, this is where I go into their DM’s, they've got the little airplane symbol right there.

And I'll then ask another question based on the problem that they said they have. So if they told me that they're having trouble keeping their kids with suntan lotion on sorry, you can tell them full summer mode here. And I'm going to ask, okay, well, what ages? And what type of sunscreen are you using? I'm going to get to the heart of the problem, and really start to understand them and their means better. So that if it's the fact that they have maybe no structure, we can talk about that.

Or if it's the fact that they're just putting suntan lotion every five minutes on them and driving the kid crazy. We can talk about that. So it's just trying to get better.

Now, it does two things by doing this and continuing our conversation. Indeed, the first thing he does obviously gives you more information on the problem that your people actually have. Second thing it does. And it's my favorite part is it affects the algorithm, Instagram, see people that are in your dm, as your friends as people that want to see your content. So now Instagram is going to your story bubble to the front, all of a sudden your contents going to start showing up in their feed again, it gives you that connection back to your people with engagement.

Lauren

Shockingly, I don't have a question because I have a comment. I love how you approach audience engagement with curiosity. Instead of I know all the answers about what my audience wants. I feel like that open mindedness is so refreshing. And it's no wonder to me that you and your clients have such success.

Jenny

Thank you.

Lauren

You're welcome. You know, because a lot of times people will be like, yeah, they want more, I don't know, videos about how to style your hair. And then they don't even follow up or ask anyone if that's useful, or what hair type they have, or you know what at all those details kind of go ignored,

Phil

And it's not any advice rooted in vanity either. It's not about hitting a magic number to enable you to have all of these features. It's just such a wrong way to go about it. Jenny, how can people continue to learn from you because I have learned so much just by being your friend, and we've had tons of conversations, I've done stuff for you and you've done stuff for me and our groups and audiences we always collaborate? Where can people go to get more of this juicy goodness, which they should know by listening up to this point that you always give such tangible, practical, implementable advice?

Jenny

So I have a podcast. It's Influencer Entrepreneurs with Jenny Melrose. If you just search Jenny Melrose, it will pop up. I've had my podcast now for four and a half years. So there's a lot of content on there. And then also Instagram @jenny _melrose is definitely like, if you have a question about from the episode or anything, just hit me up with a DM. And that's always me answering.

Phil

And can you please plug your program which is amazing.

Jenny

Pitch Perfect Pro is my signature course. It teaches the very beginning steps of what we're talking about really understanding your positioning and how to get your audience engaged with you to then the process of pitching. Knowing how to put together a proposal and knowing how to turn those one time deals into long term contracts. That's how I was able to leave a salary of $75,000 6 years ago, back before influencers were really big. And I was not huge myself. I didn't even have 10,000 followers on Instagram. I replaced that teaching salary and was able to retire at the age of 35 because of sponsored work and Pitch Perfect Pro is the step by step process for that.

Phil

You've had over 1000 people go through the program it is amazing. This program is amazing. You also give people literally examples and letters and drafts of proposals and pitches. I have looked at them. I've used them for reference and inspiration for my own. You are the real deal. People need to know that. So it's such a good investment. That program is such a good investment because you learn without having to go find out all the answers in a time consuming way yourself. You literally tell people what they need to know to start making money and doing something that is really fun. I can attest to it. It's still work, but it's fun work. It's fun work. Thank you so much Jenny Melrose. It took way too long for us to get you on the podcast. We're gonna have have you back again, because this is such a juicy topic. So we'll have you back in the future and thank you. Thank you for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy.

Jenny

Of course. Thank you for having me.