140. How do you make money from podcasting? (f. Jaclyn Mellone)
Dreaming of making money from your podcast? ☁️ Listener, you’re in luck! Brand Therapy hosts Phil and Lauren meet with podcasting extraordinaire Jaclyn Mellone for the deets on making cash in the highly competitive podcasting space. You’ll learn how to position your podcast for success, identifying your target audience, setting up affiliate links, and mistakes to avoid. You don’t want to miss this.
Episode transcription
Phil
Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. Welcome. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, we’re really happy you're here. Really happy you're here because today we're talking about a topic. It's kind of meta, we're talking about podcasting. And the guest today is one of my new business BFFs. new new new new in 2021. But it's we're kindred spirits. I'm sorry. We are. We use this app called Boxer and we chat to each other all day long. And Jacqueline is her name. And Jaclyn is the go to gal. She is here on Brand Therapy with us today to talk about podcasting. I just want to welcome you first of all, welcome, welcome.
Jaclyn
Well, thank you. I feel very welcome. I’m so excited to be here.
Phil
Really though, you're the smartest person I know when it comes to podcasting. You are a podcaster obviously, you're a coach, you're a strategist, you're so many things, but you have so much substance to share when it comes to many aspects of podcasting. And that's why I'm excited to have you here today. Because really, Lauren, and I get to become a little bit selfish. We don't always, some of the topics we know they're interesting for our listener, but there might be a little snory for us. Most of them are interesting for us. That's why we do it. But this is relevant. This is us. We are podcasting right now. Hello. And so I love your refreshing perspective on podcasting. And that was why I insisted that you be here today.
Jaclyn
Oh, yes, we have lots to dive into. And we can talk about both hosting your own show. But also, for those listening that are like, maybe not yet, that sounds like a big commitment. We can also talk about how you can still leverage the power of the podcasting platform as a guest. So we can get even more meta because here I am as a guest on a podcast. So I'm here for the metaness today.
Lauren
Okay, Jaclyn, I have tons of questions for you. because I know that Phil knows you better than I do. And he's just been like Jaclyn, this Jaclyn that. So I've got basically been building a list of questions for you in my brain to start off what got you into podcasting in the first place?
Jaclyn
Being a podcast listener. So before I even started my podcast, before I started a business, before I even knew what my business was going to be, I discovered podcasting. And like listening to podcasts, like someone who's listening to this right now that experience and it opened up a whole new world, for me. I had been I’d say, a wantrepreneur for a solid decade, probably longer. And it's started, you know, had got to get the logo design phase, but never really past that. I had some ideas, he did give me a couple of things slightly past that stage, but never really got traction. And I never knew how and I actually was around a lot of entrepreneurs locally in my community. But everything seemed like this big investment brick and mortar, a totally different business model.
And so listening to podcasts, this is how people are doing it. And I could make money just talking to people like that's literally my dream job. And I had set out to really start a podcast. And when I went through that research and thinking maybe I should start the business first, and then a podcast, and then I actually ended up finding a co host for my first podcast and I ended up launching it all around the same time.
So my first podcast was launched in November of 2015, and that same week we launched the podcast, my first ever paid program, and I found out surprise, I was pregnant with baby number two. So it was quite the week.
Lauren
Wow, roller coaster! Okay, I know that podcasting is incredibly competitive. There's millions and millions of podcasts out there. And I imagine that most of them probably aren't, quote unquote successful, so what are some easy instant ways that people can utilize a podcast to help align with their business goals?
Jaclyn
It's such a great question and I think it's important to one, starting with how many podcasts are out there, think about other how many Instagram profiles are out there. How many YouTube channels are out there, right. So when you start comparing how many blogs when you start comparing podcast to these other platforms, it's nowhere near being saturated. And with audio content, the thing that I'm the most obsessed about with it is that you multitask while you listen. So someone listening right now they're on a drive,on a walk, maybe folding laundry, maybe in the shower awkward, but we're listening to podcasts while we're doing other things.
We make more space for it throughout the week. In terms of how many podcasts could someone listen to throughout the week, quite a few if they're doing other things that doesn't take that dedicated, like, I'm gonna sit down and listen to my podcast now, type of commitment.
So there's definitely still opportunity. But I think for most people with their business, when they look at, okay, here's the top charts, you don't need to have a podcast in the top charts to be able to leverage it as a growth engine for your business. So your question is exactly what people should be thinking is okay, not oh, is there still room for me to be the next Joe Rogan or whatever? Right? Which there, we need a new Joe Rogan coming through the pipeline eventually, right? I don't even listen to him.
So absolutely, there is availability for that. But for most of us, it's okay, how can we be really strategic and intentional and create something that allows us to hit all of our goals in our business. It's not even just a marketing channel, I think of podcasting as the new networking. Because when you have a podcast, you have a platform. And any person in your industry, all of the leaders in your industry that you would want to connect and collaborate with, or those dream clients that you would want to have, you now have the best reason to reach out to them not with a pitch, but with an offer to share them with your audience and invite them to have a conversation with you.
Now you get to have a private conversation for 30 to 50 to 60 minutes, and really connect with that person. So we can talk about all the ways you can really leverage but I think that's a really important point to I don't know, double down on because I say it doesn't even matter how many people are listening, sometimes it's just about the conversations you're able to have,aside from the listeners.
Lauren
You're so great. salutely
Phil
I've said that before about our podcast. I've said that I actually don't even care if anyone listens to it. And I know people are listening, I know people are listening. But it's not the biggest concern for me, because what this does is it gets us on a zoom call, we wouldn't otherwise be on having a conversation that we wouldn't otherwise be having, and I can take this podcast, and I can turn it into an Instagram carousel. I can turn it into a tweet, I can turn it into a blog post by transcribing it even making a rough little note that I can hand off and delegate to someone else.
It's the fact that we have this sanction time to create content, share ideas, discuss or potentially create a new business connection that you wouldn't otherwise have made.
Lauren
We A few years ago, tried to connect with every single person that we've worked with previously as a client, and a quick 15 minute call. So we had this calendly link ready to go. And we be like, hey, we'd love to catch up schedule a time here. And the calls for the people who did book them. Phil, you probably remember we were in Berlin at the time. We're kind of awkward sometimes. But now with the podcast, it's great because like you said, Jaclyn, there's a purpose of the conversation, and is flattering as well.
Jaclyn
Exactly.
Phil
Jaclyn, you mentioned at the very beginning, you talked about making money from podcasting. Can you dive into that a bit more, because that in itself, I think is a bit of a mystery for people all the ways. Even if you have examples in your own business, that's always fascinating too.
Jaclyn
Exactly. So opportunities are endless in terms of how you can make money from the podcast. For a lot of service providers, course creators, business owners, the one way you really want to think about it is how can you have this lead back to the business you already have? Right? How can it really help support whatever business goals you already have? So that's through the networking relationships, maybe opening opportunities for you to speak, but also how are you creating content that's leading to your offers?
We can dive more into that, but I sense that you want me to go a little beyond that of like, well, how else can you make money on here? And there's paid sponsorships and partnerships, which if you go into Google and say how many downloads do I need per episode to monetize my podcast with a paid sponsor or something shorter than that, you're going to see the industry standard rates that start at 4000 downloads per episode and are something like $18 per 1000 downloads per episode. Which for most podcasters that don't even have 1000 downloads per episode, you're thinking how am I ever gonna make money from sponsorship. And that's where when you have a targeted audience, you can really go outside of the industry norms and partner with a company to get creative and blow that number up.
So I will share our first ever paid sponsor back with my first podcast, we had it for about four months, we were just under 500 downloads per episode, and I negotiated our first paid sponsor to be $100 per episode. And the way I did that was by leveraging our whole platform, which wasn't big. We had a Facebook group with like 800 people, even maybe 1000 people on an email list, a couple 1000 on Instagram, this wasn't like a huge platform at the time back in 2016. But because our audience was really targeted and we were the exact profile that they wanted to connect with and get in front of, we were able to combine the whole package together to start bringing in $800 a month, which was significant at pace, certainly paid for the production of the podcast at that time, and then some.
So with sponsorship, I share that story to just say keep an open mind with it. Certainly, if you want that to be your main. So if you're looking to make a six figure salary or revenue from your podcast just through sponsorship, you're going to need bigger numbers or a very, very niche audience. But for most of us, that can just be a little bit of an extra revenue stream that's really passive, right, you're already doing it, you're already doing the podcast, so why not work a sponsor in.
Now you can also do the same with an affiliate sponsor. So the affiliate sponsor isn't going to pay you directly. But just like you would have an affiliate for maybe a software company, like ConvertKit is one of the ones that I've had in the past, you can promote them on your website on social media, you can promote them on the podcast. So we got really creative with this and started not just running ads consistently for that free trial with our affiliate link, but also creating content that led to that. Interviewing different people from the company and talking about what we were doing with our email marketing and mentioning ConvertKit really integrating it. And with that, especially because it's a recurring revenue stream. So that means as an affiliate, when somebody joined through our link, we would get paid 30% of their monthly bill recurring indefinitely the cool thing about that is that I have not run an ad on my podcast for ConvertKit since December of 2018. So since December of 2018, we've had no ads running for ConvertKit and it is still a five figure revenue stream.
Lauren
Are you serious?
Jaclyn
Oh, yes. That's wild right? Because once you build up that recurring revenue, it's there. You know, if you're not continuing to promote it, it's going to dwindle over time, but it's recurring. I mean, that's the most passive income you could ever have. And by being really consistent and going the extra mile with the one affiliate, different affiliate every episode, but going deep and really partnering with one, it opened up the opportunity to speak at their conference to collaborate in different ways have the founder on you know, as an interview all of those things by really going deep with one company and creating that partnership.
Phil
I love that example. It's so juicy and delicious. Thank you for sharing that.
Jaclyn
I thought you might enjoy that. But there's many different ways you can get creative with sponsorships, with affiliate, with your own offers, any of those things.
Lauren
What are some kind of frequent mistakes or areas of improvement that you see with people who come to you for help?
Jaclyn
One of the biggest mistakes I see with people having a podcast, is doing the interview model, which is great, but never really taking that time to one, build the relationship with the audience and two show their own expertise to their audience. So if you do want to leverage your podcast as a growth engine for your business, it's really important that your audience sees you as that go to expert for your thing. That they have the opportunity to hear your advice, your stories, hear from your clients what your secret sauce is, and get their questions answered. So they see you as that go to person, not just oh, this kind of friendly person I enjoy listening to that has really awesome guests. So that is something I see a lot of people are like I'm doing the things I'm showing up consistently right. With podcasting, that's really important, because it's a habit, people tend to work podcast into their weekly routines. Oh, when I go on a run this day, I listened to that podcast, they know when those new episodes drop, and they work it into their weekly schedule. So if they go to listen to you that one week and you're not there, that's when they're going to go find another episode to fill that time. And let's hope the next week they come back to you if you're still there the next week, right?
So really being consistent is important. But I find those are the basic things where like I'm, you know, I'm showing up I'm doing it I have these great guests, I have really big name guests that aren't sharing because most of the time the big name guests don't share, right. So it's like I'm checking all the boxes, but it's not seeming to grow or convert. And I think that's it that missing connection piece. And them really seeing you as the expert, too. I am not against interviews is, like I said before, I think it's the new networking, but there really has to be a place for both or wait for you to show up. Even if all your episodes are interviews a way for you just show up in those conversations through the lens of your expertise.
Phil
Yes, that's a lesson we learned. Not right off the bat. We learned that one a little bit late. I don't know that I've actually told you this. But our podcast started, as I was getting on the phone, we would get them phone voice like phone, and they would ask us a question about branding, and we worked through it for 20 minutes. And it served as a as an example of us really showing proof of concept. This is how Lauren and I work. This is what we do.
And it was great, until we got to episode 50, and 30 of those episodes had been about how to get more Instagram followers. And we thought okay, we're sick of this question, we need to change the format. And we just weren't excited about it anymore. It felt like a lot of work for not a lot of reward. And ever since then we've been doing interviews. And then we alternate with episodes with just Lauren and I where we talk about a topic. And many of our listeners have told us some of when we ask them, their favorite episodes. The one of Lauren and I, we just we had tons of downloads on our recent episode about burnout, we're not even experts in burnout, but it was something we were talking about in our business. We made an episode out of it and people loved it.
You just you never know. But it comes back to that connection piece. Jaclyn, it comes back to that connection piece. This fits with where we're going with this conversation. But it's super selfish question, but I'm dying to get your input on this. How do you get more people to listen to the podcast that you work so hard to create? We are nowhere near 4000 downloads per episode. But honey would I love to be close to that. So how do you even get people to listen to a podcast when there's so many to choose from?
Jaclyn
You want to give them a reason to listen. And that sounds so simple, but that should really be at the core of your strategy, why is someone going to listen to this podcast as a whole? And then each episode, bring it back to answering that question because they start listening to your podcast for a reason. So for my podcast, for instance, with go to gal, someone's listening, they're looking to grow a business as an expert in their industry to get known as that go to authority. So I talk about a very wide variety of topics on there and have a very wide variety of guests that will talk about productivity, we'll talk about business strategies, marketing strategies mindset, right. But it all comes back to how is that helping them really step into becoming that go to authority? And that gives it that through line. So one is, having that really clear who is this for and why are they listening? It sounds basic, but most podcasts don't fit that test. So that's a really good starting point.
And then in terms of getting in front of new listeners, you typically want to grow on the platform that you're looking to grow. And so one of the best ways to grow your podcast is by being a guest on other people's podcasts. That is a group of listeners who have already raised their hand and said, I like listening to podcasts, they're already in that app. And it's such an easier leap to take them in a podcasting app, just subscribe to you versus a totally other platform, different format of content to then go over and subscribe.
I personally think that's one of the best ways plus they've heard you talk for a period of time they enjoy listening to you. So that relationship is so much stronger. And that's where as a guest, it's really powerful, even if it's not your own podcast, because that listener really warms up to you so fast. They're much more likely to come be a loyal subscriber after listening to you on another podcast. And if you have that other part in place, they're gonna stay a listener, right? So that's how it connects, it first starts with how are we going to keep people around, how do we now get new people and not lose them? And then from there, I think it's really about community. If you have 10 listeners, if you have 50 if you have 100 if you have 1000, if and each one of them told one friend. ‘you have to listen to this podcast, it is just for you.’ Whatever it is, you could double your listeners overnight, and if you can keep doing that, that is so powerful.
That's something I really focus on too is engaging that community and really creating content that is shareable for them, encouraging them, to share. I love them sharing on stories!
But sometimes it's more powerful to take a screenshot on your phone and text it to a friend and say you've been thinking about starting a podcast, you should go listen to this episode. That person's going to listen and they're much more likely to stay listening because they got that referral, if you will, from a trusted friend.
Lauren
I love that perspective. Now, to become a guest on other people's podcasts, do you have a recommended outreach strategy or a messaging strategy or anything like that?
Jaclyn
I do. I do. I actually have a mini training and templates called the podcast guest plugin pitch system that gives you branded templates that make it really easy to plug and pitch, if you will. But it's different pitching podcasters than pitching any other form of media. And that's because they're literally us, right? Like, no, literally, we're the podcasters. Right? They're business owners, they're not journalist. And so it's a different type of approach, because it's much more about relationships, their job is not sitting there filtering pitches all day. They're literally they running their own business. And so it's a very different approach. It's very relationship focused. And the main thing I think people do wrong with pitching is one, I mean, other than just like total copy, paste, no personalization at all. But the main thing besides that is making it all about trying so hard to sell yourself and missing the point of what the hosts objective really is. You're not pitching that host, you're pitching their audience.
It's really about what value can you bring to their audience. As a host, we feel very protective of our audiences, they're tuning in week after week, and we want them to have that really great experience. So somebody's pitching and saying, I will have to be on your show, I'm really great at this, that doesn't show me how it's going to bring value to my audience. But if you can show me what you can share is going to help my audience hit their goals for the reason why they're listening to the show, then it's an alignment, and you're much more likely to get that yes.
Lauren
That makes sense. We get a lot of those kind of emails, and you just have this kind of visceral reaction and archive immediately. It has the actual probably the opposite intended effect. Whereas if someone does, if someone said ‘hey, I was listening to this episode, and I loved the guests perspective, I think I can really expand on that, this is my expertise’, blah, blah, blah, that makes the sale a lot more compelling.
Jaclyn
Yes, you're at least gonna take the time to read it and look into them. And maybe it's not a fit now. But it could be in the future. Or maybe you talk to someone two months from now that needs that service, and you refer them right. So so many different things can come from that. The agencies. These people are paying money to the agencies and the agencies are this spammiest.
Phil
I just got an email a second ago that said, was I wrong about, insert the name of the person they're pitching, because they had emailed me five times, and I ignored it. And Lauren knows, I find it really disrespectful when people ignore my emails. And so I make a habit of not ignoring emails, I don't like it. But I make an exception podcasting agency guests, I ignore them. Because if you reply, it's never ending. It's like the people standing on the front door trying to sell their religion, it's better to just not open the door, just hide, pretend you're not home. Because if you do open the door, it's gonna invite a four conversation, and I just don't want it. And yet, here we are together on a podcast, which wasn't from a pitch it was from a friendship formed. And I know I can look at our stats, our episodes with our own friends, and guests and connections perform way better than any of the guests that we've had on that have been pitched. We've maybe had three accepted on that had been pitched that I thought were interesting. I ignore those pitches.
Jaclyn
As the host, it's almost a time saving hack. Because we are protective of our audience, we're not gonna invite someone on who we don't know at all. And part of the reason why being a guest is so powerful is because it feels like a referral from the host. They're like, this person's an expert at this. so you're getting introduced as an authority from this trusted person you listen to that holds a lot of weight. And that's part of the reason why it really is beneficial to you as a guest, but on the opposite sides of us as hosts, we want to make sure we're introducing people to our audience that we feel comfortable introducing, knowing the weight that comes with that. And also, like I said before, we're business owners, we're not professional podcast hosts, we're not spending at least I'm not spending hours like reading people's books preparing for interviews. That's not how I run my show. It's not that style of a show.
If I know someone already, and I know some of the stories I want them to share or the expertise that they can bring to the table, that saves me time and prep and it's gonna be a more natural, organic conversation. I don't have to do all that stuff, it's gonna just naturally happen. Now someone listening that says ‘oh, well, there goes my chance to get in on these podcasts’, that is also something you can use to your benefit. I actually had this as a bonus included in my mini course, I call it the Trojan horse. If people want the templates, I give you the template. And a lot of podcasts, just the templates are going to work, you send them out. But for the other ones that are harder to get into, especially the bigger, more established podcasts, a lot of it is about relationship.
And so I call it the invisible pitch method. But it is it's about building those relationships, and then they feel comfortable having you on right or maybe you're their star student, you join their course or their program, or you're helping out in a different way. You're part of their team. There's all different ways that that can happen organically, but you're able to build that relationship and get on through a different way.
Lauren
Now, I'm gonna ask you a question that you probably get asked by everyone. But what are some of your favorite podcasts?
Jaclyn
Oh, I don't get asked that all the time.
Lauren
I mean, the podcasting queen that you are, that would be the go to.
Jaclyn
Oh, my goodness, let me open up my app, I have so many. I have so many that I subscribe to you. But I kind of go through phases with different ones, if that makes sense. And so you kind of go through. I will say I'll confess my new thing that I've been doing, which may make me sound ridiculous, but I'll share it anyway. I have been using a company called Hello Audio to put our courses and content as private podcasts as private audio feeds, and what I did is I had my team put even backlogs of courses in content, or even certain collections of podcast episodes that are relevant to what we're creating now, as private podcast that only I have access to. So I can go back and listen and refresh myself on my own content as we're really revising some things. And I'm like, you know what, instead of me listening to someone else's content to get inspired, I need to listen to like Jaclyn two years ago and what she was talking about then, because that's what we're talking about now. And I know I had good content then. So I've actually been listening to myself a lot, which is kind of embarrassing to admit.
But one of my favorite podcasts right now is aside from my own private podcast, which is not my favorite, but it's definitely efficient for me to listen in that way is called ADHD for smart ass women. I don't know what our rating is here. If I'm allowed to say that you have to bleep me out.
Phil
You can say whatever you want.
Lauren
No bleeping necessary.
Jaclyn
Oh, but I in the last two years has started getting treated for ADHD. And so being able to connect with the community and kind of dive into that content that's outside of the business world has been really eye opening for me and my journey with that. And then my friend Kathy Heller, don't keep your day job. It's interesting, because I feel like her podcast is mainly geared towards that person who hasn't started a business yet. But her questions are so insightful. And she has these mini episodes now. And she just is so inspiring to me. And I just use one of those people. I just hear her voice and it makes me happy. And so I've been listening to her a lot more frequently as well.
Lauren
I love it. I'm a sucker for any kind of interviewing podcast. I loves Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard. It's one of my favorites.
Phil
I’ve been listening to that. I just listened to the Prince Harry episode.
Jaclyn
Everyone's talking about it.
Lauren
Really good. And then I just discovered the podcast smart lists, which has basically all of my favorite people in it, Jason Bateman, Will Arnett and Sean Hayes and their guest list is wild. And it's not too often that you come across podcasts with three hosts, but it keeps it really fast paced. So I'm enjoying that one right now.
Jaclyn
People keep bringing it up to me, so I definitely need to check it out.
Phil
I want to just thank Jaclyn for sharing this amazing expertise. Jaclyn, where can people go to get more of you?
Jaclyn
Sure. So you can definitely come over to the ‘go to gal podcast’. We have new episodes every Tuesday, wherever you're listening to this podcast, and then outside from that you can hit me up on Instagram, send me a DM over there. Or if you want to really start building authority in your business, if you're thinking about is it a podcast, or to be a guest on podcast or what else can I do to really get known as that go to expert, I put together a 30 day action plan that goes through my whole authority building framework and gives you a bite size action step to take every day it's totally free if you go to jaclynmellone.com/plan
Phil
Perfect. Oh, I love that. I love the bite size action and 30 days to keep you on track. The bite size is key also to keep people like you and me focus because boop boop have a tendency, you know, to bounce around. I love that. Well, this has been awesome. You're the best. We've enjoyed having you on brand therapy and we're in a mastermind to get us we get to see each other all the time. It's fantastic, but it was fun to be able to share you with our peeps today as well. So thank you for spending your time with us.
Jaclyn
Well, thank you too. This was such a blast.
