142. How do you get media appearances? (f. Claire Shiels)
Can you get PR without a publicist? 📰 According to our expert guest, you certainly can! In this Brand Therapy episode, Phil and Lauren debunk PR myths with renowned publicist Claire Shiels. You’ll learn tricks for building relationships with journalists (it’s easier than you think!), pitching yourself as an expert, and generating your own PR without breaking the bank. This is one of our favorite episodes yet—don’t miss out!
Episode transcription
Phil
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand, promote, promote, promote. That's the topic for today. I know you know the title because you pick this episode to listen to. Sometimes it's Lauren and I together, but I get even more excited when it's Lauren, and me, and a fun person that turns it into a party. And let me tell you, this is going to be a party. Claire is our guest today. And Claire is my very favorite person in the PR world. Let me tell you about the minute the second I fell in love with her instantly. It was when I learned about her business that she describes it as ‘pay by results PR’, Claire, well, I might as well just welcome you and say welcome to Brand Therapy we're so happy to have you here.
Claire
Thank you, Phil. Thank you. Thank you, Lauren. Yes, I say it's my very first podcast, actually. So I'm really delighted I hope to do lots more.
Lauren
Yes. Oh, my gosh.
Phil
You have such a refreshing perspective on an industry that sometimes has a tricky reputation. I know in our work like that's so tangible, obviously branding, we make websites and brand identities and very physical things. Anytime that I mean, we've tried to do PR on our own hasn't gone very well, because it's a whole separate world, we haven't done that much. But before you anytime I partnered or worked with people in this space, it's never gone well. And I'm so happy to say that you have brought me so much incredible press, and you're so kind and you're so on top of it and organized. And sometimes we even giggle about things. And that's why I'm happy you're here because there's no fluff with you. And we're so happy about that. And we're happy I've wanted you here for a while. So we're going to give people useful things as it relates to PR because I'm a big believer, big, big believer in PR. And we'll get to that. Lauren, do you feel similarly about PR, as I do now that we've been doing this for a decade?
Lauren
I do. Most of what I know about PR comes from when I used to work with corporations, and even an advertising agency before joining Phil. And in my unfortunate experience, whenever I would interact with a publicist, I would know that they get paid a heck of a lot of money for a retainer, that they wouldn't be held accountable for any results, that they would kind of feel very fluffy and it wouldn't feel concrete. And there wouldn't necessarily be results. So when Phil told me about the way that you work, paying for results, I was like, wow, Claire must really know what she's doing.
So maybe to kick things off, what do you think people misunderstand about PR?
Claire
Well, first of all, let me say, I think I'm different because I'm a northern girl. So you got your sort of your large agencies in London, etc. You've got your consultants all over the UK, and a lot of them will be charging expensive retainers. And I've worked with PR's in the past while I was in house, and it annoyed me how there was a lot of fluff, you know, we're talking to such and such as coming off, I'll just take another 4000 pounds off you this month for that and all that kind of thing. And I think in the 90s, when I was working in London, certainly about that time, it was just really cool to have a PR company behind you, or a PR person behind you. It gave you a bit of an ego boost.
But it's a lot of money, it's sort of held a lot of money. And because I'm up north, if you like I'm between Jordy and Scotland, if people don't know what the accent is, I want to take the ball out of PR basically, the clients that I work with, and now focus on the health and beauty sector experts in those two sectors. But the clients that I work with have told me all sorts of horror stories, about how much they've been charged and not delivered, etc. So I thought, right, I'm going to turn this on its head, I'm going to make it actual deliverables on PR. I think with the creative industries, there is a kind of lot of intangible evidence and results, etc. It makes it very, very difficult for both parties. So now what I do is I act as a kind of matchmaker between a journalist looking for an expert opinion on a particular story, and one of my experts, which could be anything from psychologists to dermatologists, and the client pays me nothing at all upfront, and only if they get into the press do I then charge them. So that's it. It's easy.
It's a very simple model, a very, very simple model. But I know a lot of PRs are kind of shaking in their shoes at that particular concept. So, but as I say, that's the way it's going. People can't afford to be paying 1000s of pounds each month, they want to pay for what they've got in the press. And that's it.
Lauren
And what's brilliant about that model is it actually incentivizes you, the publicist, to be as smart as you can, to work for as little time as possible, so that you can charge and ultimately get results but make money from it.
Claire
Exactly, exactly. And as I say, I've worked in this business for twelve years. So once you get to this stage, you have your group of journalists, and nine times out of ten, they come to me looking for people. So to be perfectly honest and transparent, which I always am, you know, it's quite easy for me. I know my clients and what they specialize in. I know what the journalists are looking for, it's a matter of putting them together. So that way you can get them in the Times you can get them in Daily Mail, you can get them on Good Morning, Britain, you get them on all sorts. And that's just the way that's having that relationship, knowing the clients putting the two together, bingo.
Lauren
Wow.
Phil
What are the immediate advantages that come to your mind? Claire, even reflecting recently, maybe on some of the pressing your clients have gotten. What are the advantages, right now of generating press or PR?
Claire
Well, I've just had an email from a dermatologist client of mine called Emma Coleman, who's fantastic. She's in everything. And she's just told me, we got her a piece in The Independent, I think it was last week. And from that, she was contacted by radio five live BBC radio channel and asked to do an interview. So one piece of publicity easily leads to lots of other publicity. Lots of other publicity leads to a very strong brand, and a very strong brand leads to more clients and more income. Simple as that.
Phil
Yes, I have an anecdote too, one that involves you. I would add that and say that the subsequent or following press isn't necessarily going to be the same day or the next day could be a month, two months, three months down the road. But that's happened, you helped me, generate press, and I got called on something, three or four months down the road, because I had talked about the same topic a few months prior. So I can attest to that I can vouch.
Also, when I reflect on my first experience with PR, this involves you, Lauren, back in the day, back in the day before I started, and I was still in grad school, and I was vying to become Charlie Sheen’s social media intern. If you don't know the story, Google it. It's there. The very first piece of press that I got was a local newspaper on those intersections that you think no one reads, and it was the smallest little thing but I thought, Oh, that's cool. They want to ask no answer a few questions. One hour after it was published, the Toronto Star called me 45 minutes after the Toronto Star called me, it was in the Canadian press, and it was circulated to every newsroom, countrywide.
So that trickle effect that you just described, could not be truer. I did over 100 interviews, in my quest to become Charlie Sheen's social media intern at the peak of his craziness in 2011, that effectively launched my career. So if you want to know why I'm so passionate about press and about PR, but also so friendly with someone like Claire, who's results driven, that's why. This is the reason I am doing and I am where I am today, press and PR has become a humongous part of it.
Claire
Yeah. And the thing is, as well, some clients will say to me, okay, if I get in the press, will I automatically get another 30 clients ringing me. It doesn't really work like that. doesn't really work. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it does. Sometimes you're lucky.
Phil
But does a single workout give you killer abs?
Claire
No, exactly. Even if you did advertising which costs 1000s, hundreds of 1000s, sometimes you gotta do more than one. So yes, the answer is not always. However, if you are looking to build up your client base over the mid to long term, then you need to include PR within your branding strategy. Certainly, you need to develop a personality. You may be the most wonderful person and a fantastic expert in whatever you do, but if you haven't got a very strong brand that's instantly recognizable by the press and by your target audience, you're going to struggle.
LaUREN
Now a lot of our listeners are solopreneurs or working as freelancers and hiring a publicist might not make a lot of sense for them at this point in time. When you mentioned how right now you're kind of acting as a matchmaker because you have so many decades of experience in the industry, I was thinking, well, what about for someone who doesn't know journalists? Where can they begin? Is there this special club full of publicists and journalists that is impossible to infiltrate unless you work for a big firm at some point? Or is it possible as an ordinary everyday person to get on the radar of journalists?
Claire
Oh, god, it's never been easier to get in touch with journalists. And if I'm being perfectly honest, journalists love, although they love me, because I've got lots of clients for them, but they also love people to get in touch, who aren’t PRs as well.
So for example, if you wanted to get into the Cosmopolitan website, for example, you just look for an article that resonates with you in your particular industry, whether that's health, beauty, fashion, whatever it is, look at the journalist who wrote it, go on to LinkedIn, and connect with them on LinkedIn, you'll get their email address, you've got that connection, and you can start talking to them. You know, it's never been easier with social media now than it has been before to get in touch with a journalist. And then we easily build up our own network very, very quickly by doing that.
Lauren
And when you do get in touch with them, and send them an email, would you recommend kind of introducing yourself and saying, Hey, I loved your article about XYZ? I feel like if you ever need an expert to weigh in on any of these topics, I'm always here. How would you actually recommend crafting that message?
Claire
Absolutely. There's always been this perception about journalists, how they're very, very unapproachable, and people are quite scared of getting in touch with them. But nowadays, I would say about 90% of the journalists that I work with are actually freelancers. They're not in-house staff. So they're looking for the next story, they're looking for the next commission, because they don't get paid otherwise. So get in touch with them, look at what they're talking about. That's the first thing, get to know them what they're talking about. If it resonates with your particular industry, and your particular expertise, get in touch, just say, you know, I'm here, I'm available to talk to you, whatever, just get in touch with them and start that conversation.
Lauren
How fascinating, because it seems so daunting, you know.
Phil
The thing is, also, I mean, now, with so much press online, and articles and publications, you just have to start by looking at who wrote the article that you think might write something related to a topic that could feature your opinion. But the downside of that is that it's very time consuming. And so the advantage of hiring someone like Claire is that the relationships are already there. The top of mindedness is instant. And anyone can do it themselves, but it's extremely time consuming.
Claire
It's a learning curve. It really is a learning curve, because you have to get in the mindset of your journalists that you're wanting to target. So for example, I know a lot of my journalists will look at trends on TikTok, so what I will do is I will look at TikTok to see what's trending, then sometimes I will pitch on behalf of one of my clients and say, you know, have you seen this we're doing, how this new shaving techniques have got and what it can do to your skin, etc. And I know for a fact they'll pick it up someday the Express or Metro would pick that up. So it's a process of getting to know them, but it can be done.
Lauren
And how interesting to look at TikTok, because you could say there have been 5 million videos on this topic, my client is able to weigh in on whether this damages your skin or whether there's something there, etc.
Claire
Exactly. It's just a case now where there's so much content out there so much. And I know some of the journalists that I work with will be asked to produce around six articles per day, it's really fast. So if I send something in a quote from a client, that story will be turned around in the next hour and online live. So it literally is just speed and quantity basically just fast turnover as much as you can. That's where that helps. The downside to that is with journalists who come to me, there is usually a deadline of about an hour to two hours, they want the content turned around. So that's the downside. You've got to be on the ball, you gotta be available, you got to be able to give information very, very quickly. But yeah, it can be online on a new site within an hour very easily.
Lauren
Is there an art to keep saying or even writing sound bites in a way that speaks to a journalist and I'll just back this up with a little quick story. With Phil, sometimes, if he's about to submit answers to a journalist question or go on a radio interview or whatever. he'll chat with me before and will map out some points and talking points or quotes he tries to hit or say and usually with Phil's brand, we try to be a bit outrageous. So with CNN, we made a statement that was something like Kendall Jenner needs to put her big girl pants on. And then it ended up being massive in the article because it's so bold, do you have to be bold? Is there an art form to those sound bites? Tell us everything.
Claire
It all depends on which publication you're targeting really. However, what I would say is that, again, it's speed more than anything else. But if you have a brand that you are wanting to portray, within the press, you can do that you can add a couple of quotes in there that reflect your brand. You could add in a couple of messages that you really want to get out there, it has to be done quite subtly, because if you come across as kind of really sales pitchy, you'll not be used.
But for example, I speak quite clearly and I speak quite abruptly, like, bluntly, probably is more a better word for it to the press when I'm doing any of mine. So that comes across, I think it's not an airy fairy, it's very much down to earth. This is the way it is, this is what I think about this, and that's it. And that kind of gets that message across that is no nonsense. I'm not a bull.
I think there's a way of getting your own character across there, as well as your brand messages.
Phil
And the more you do it, the more confident you become. It's kind of scary, actually, the first few times you do it, because there's a rush, there's a thrill that you might end up in a publication and so you want to impress the journalist, you want to say the right thing, you certainly don't want to be misquoted. So you're not only thinking about how to answer the question they're asking you, but you're thinking so much about all the other performance elements, kind of like standing on stage.
Claire
If you can get questions over on email, do that. Because that's, that's the safest way of doing it. And then you can practice what you want to write, etc. And, go over it and edit it. If you're doing something live, and you're not comfortable with doing live, but believe you may need to do live, you can kind of take on a different role. If you like you can pretend you're somebody that you can always practice, practice and practice to get to be heard, to be understood. And to make sure you're not sounding ridiculous on the radios as usually a good way of doing it. But just be yourself, but take on a different role, if that makes sense. Fake it till you make it feel like with confidence is what is the way I put it.
For example, for some strange reason, I was invited on to Scottish radio to talk about the branding of the England football team. I think it was England vs Scotland, and it was the England football team. Now, what I know about football, you could put on the back of a stamp really. So I went live on the right, I just said yes, just said yes to everything. And I went live, and it just took over. It's very, very odd. You just know what you're talking about with regards to your particular industry, and your skills that you have. Everything else is just kind of peripheral. So it just makes it work, you know. So always say yes, and never hide, never hide is much as my advice.
Phil
Well, I agree with that. You can't control the questions that are going to be asked, but you always have control over how you answer them. So I remind myself that if someone asks me a question that is uncomfortable, which has happened if I've done celebrity stuff, they'll say, ``Do you think Jay Z and Beyonce are gonna get divorced or whatever it was Kim and Kanye at that time? Yeah, it was a rumor. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not honestly in a place to answer that question. I don't know them. I don't follow their intimate details or rumors, etc. So give an answer how you are confident answering the question, which might not be I'm not going to be assertive or confrontational and say, I'm not comfortable answering that question. I would say, listen, there's all kinds of rumors that are swirling around, I guess time will tell what is eventually going to unfold. Like you could give something general like that, that is still positive and upbeat. But without getting specific.
Do you have an opinion on some of these do it yourself PR tools? A popular one is is HARO, help a reporter out. Another one that I think is slightly better, but still pretty saturated, is quoted with a W, QWOTED that one I paid somewhat attention to but honestly not a whole lot of attention. The only thing I pay attention to is when Claire messages me on Facebook. That's it. at three o'clock in the morning with the time difference. Phil, can you do this? I'm like, wait, I don't even have like. What do you think about some of those tools?
Claire
I think they're really handy. But I would say be very careful because there are some very expensive ones out there, which are very good. They are very, very good and journalists do use them. You'll find out very, very quickly which ones they do use, but some of them can run into hundreds of pounds each month to subscribe to them. To be honest with you, you need to be focusing on making those connections with the journalists so they come to you, which they do with a lot of my clients now, and also use something like Twitter, I think it's a hashtag journal request, you can have on Twitter as well. And I've had some amazing results from that, really. So ‘a’ your network and relationships and ‘b’ social media, and you really don't need anything else.
Phil
When you flock to some of these free tools, you have to realize you're also walking into a room with a lot of other people that want a free sample at Costco, you know, it's the same idea. It's like, as soon as it's free, it's like the room is full. So it's not to say you can't have success, but it's competitive.
Claire
Yeah, just be fast. I would say if you come across something like that on Twitter, or whatever, just be really, really fast. Be really brief. When you contact the journalist and tell them just to think about what they need to know, you've got 10 seconds to introduce yourself, and tell them what you can say that will make a brilliant article. That's it for 10 seconds, and to do it.
Phil
I keep a draft in my drafts folder in my inbox, which is essentially what I could quickly copy and paste to a journalist so that it's ready. And it has examples of my most recent articles. And I update that occasionally, you could save it as an email template if you've got that functionality. But you literally don't even have time to write the email to the journalist, it needs to be something that's basically pre written with a sentence or two that you plug in custom to their request.
Claire
Exactly. I would say be careful though, because a lot of people don't understand the difference between promotion and publicity. The two very different things in that give you an example. I could be asking a psychologist for a quote, and the psychologist gives me the quote. The psychologist says, can you actually include this paragraph I was awarded this blah, blah, blah, blah, I worked in this place for 10 years. And I'm like, no, they don't want to know, they don't want to know, I can maybe do an award winning psychologist, but that as much as you're gonna get an A link to your website, of course. But that's as much as you're gonna get. So don't waffle on about how fantastic you are, what awards you've won, all this because I'm not interested. Steer clear. Steer clear of that.
LaUREN
Okay, I have a question that is prompted by a lot of clients and people that approach us. People are really excited to launch their website, and they'll be like, I want to do a campaign, I want to send a press release. Are press releases are worth it? Is there a tactic to make them effective? What do you think?
Claire
It all depends, if you're launching a new product, yes, do a press release, especially if it's to trade press and not consumer press. However, if you look at consumer press, which is my specialty. And bear in mind, I get about 200 emails a day. So if for example, you've got a new website, if you've won an award, etc. I'm not going to swear on your podcast, but frankly business don't give a toss basically, that don't care. What they want is an article that's going to shout at their client audience that they're going to be interested in. And the easiest way to do that, and it's all common sense, PR, it's just common sense is if you want to get into glamour or whatever online, look at what they're writing about. Is there anything there about somebody launching a new website? No. Is there anything about people winning awards? No. Is there anything about people getting sunburned horribly and using the wrong suntan lotion, yes. So you kind of think, okay, this is what I need to be talking about. Not a boring website that nobody wants to know about, you know. So I think sometimes I have to be very, very harsh with clients and say, no, actually, nobody's interested in that. It's very exciting to you, I'm sure, but not to anybody else. So you've got to really be quite harsh, but understand what your story and what promotion is. So that's the difference.
Lauren
Amazing. Now, I think that I could honestly ask you about 100 questions, but I know I got to reel it in a bit. Is there an art to getting media appearances on television shows? Because you'd be, I guess, reaching out to producers instead of journalists? Is there? Do you have any insight on that?
Claire
It's kind of the most requested TV show, in my particular target market tends to be morning TV that appeals to women. So what I say is, look at the celebrity press, and do a me too, that's usually a good way. And so if somebody had, for example, a disastrous Brazilian buttlift and one of the Kardashians has had a disastrous butt lift, etc. You can then get in contact with TV station, a program visually producer, again, you can find them on LinkedIn, you know, just type in this morning, producer and it will come up. So you can contact them and just say, look, I've got this real life story. And this has happened to Kim Kardashian. It happened to me as well. Join me to talk about it. And absolutely absolutely love people like that. Absolutely love them. So they need a hook. So it needs to be very, very tiny as we are happening right now. I'm talking within hours of the press kind of mentioned and something's happened to a celeb or whatever. If it's happened to you, get on there.
Even if it's not directly related to your business, there's always a way you can get your business mentioned when you're there. So use that as an opportunity to promote your business because something happens to me to do that kind of thing and get on there and get interviewed.
Lauren
Amazing. I love how your approach is less about me, me, me and like PR gets me on articles and gets me as a thought leader. And it's more about thinking, how can we be as useful as possible for journalists who are actually going to be doing the work? Like how can we get ourselves in their shoes, that's you know.
Claire
That's how I met Phil, at a workshop called how do journalists think or something like that. It was now and that was a really useful workshop because we had journalists there talking to us, but what they were looking for and everything else. And those workshops are really kind of great, you're looking to do PR by yourself.
But yeah, a bit just my advice is just look through the press, familiarize yourself with it, what kind of stories they are after. For example, obviously something in the Daily Express wouldn't appear in Okay, magazines, to different things to some things entirely. So if you're wanting to get somewhere in particular, be featured and swap in particular look at what kinds of stories that they're using, you know, before you contact the journalist. And that's, that's it's very, very simple. It's very, very, it's not rocket science, it really isn't.
Lauren
Claire, you're officially my favorite publicist, you add what you're saying actually makes sense.
Claire
Journalists want to talk to you, never has there been more content required and few journalists available to do it. So if you can do their job for them, I tell you what, you'd become a go to within weeks, you really will. And once have used you once, Phil, you know this, they will keep coming back and back and back. I mean, the amount of times I've had journalists contact me 10 o'clock at night saying can you just ask Phil? And well, no, because he's on the other side of the world and is in a different time zone who's probably asleep. And he hates me ringing at 3am in the morning, but you know, they come back time and time and time again. So it made me just work. So just be sensible, understand what they're after, make yourself available. And you're up there very, very quickly.
Phil
If you want to be in the press, look at the press, I think that's actually really good advice. People are so focused on themselves on their goals and being famous and being mentioned. And it's like, well, look, if you want to be there, look at what else is there and think about how you could fit in there too. What I also love. I've been trying to convince Claire to also go worldwide and come to the US and get into things.
Claire
Oh, I went to New York just before lockdown, and I'm a country girl. I am a country girl. I live on the coast in Northumberland, the seas just right outside my window here. Hate cities absolutely hates cities, adored New York. absolutely adored, I felt so at home. So I tell you, if you invite me to New York, I'm there. I'm there.
Phil
I mean, we'll work on that. Yeah, we'll work on that. I just love your perspective on this. I love what you teach, not only what you do, what you've done for me and what you've done for lots of clients that rave about youut I love how you teach this and how you frame this, which Lauren is responding so positively to and I think what you teach and what you shared in this episode transcends just the UK market. We have listeners all over the world lots in the US and Canada, the UK as well. But other European countries and South America and lots of people all over the place. And what you've taught us today is not specific to one market. And I love your perspective on this and it's just been so great to have you we're gonna have to have you back again because we're not even done with you. This is just starting.
Claire
First podcast now I'm a co host. Yeah.
Phil
That is an instant promotion, Claire, we have had so much fun chatting with you. Last question. Where can people find you? Your company is Harley Street Publicity. I just know you as Claire call Claire. Where can people learn more about you?
Claire
My website is Harley Street publicity.co.uk. Now people may think that I'm based in London, I am not based in London, and I take clients from all over. But I chose Harley Street as part of my brand because it shouts health and beauty. That's what it's famous for. So that tells you in a nutshell, exactly who my clients are.
Phil
That's great. Well, we appreciate you. This has been so fun. We've learned a ton. Thank you.
Claire
Thank you for having me.
Lauren
Thank you.
