168. How do you build a creative business? (f. Michele Plachter)
How do you turn a creative hobby into a money-making business? 🏦 Hosts Phil and Lauren met with client extraordinaire Michele Plachter for her tips. As the owner of a successful interior design firm, Michele has experienced the ins and outs from building a business of one to a profitable team. From her inspirational origins to biggest tips, this episode will inspire you to be ambitious with your business pursuits.
Episode transcription
Phil
Well hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is a podcast where we help you position build and promote your brand. I'm so happy you're here. The speed at which I'm speaking has already increased to represent the excitement for the guests that we have on today. When we talk about a handful of my very favorite people on the planet, this one is included. And this also not is just a friendship. This is also an incredible collaboration, a brand a website, talk about talent. When it comes to Lauren and I having unprecedented it feels like access to some of the most fascinating the most talented people on the planet. All you need to do is go to Michelle Pachter, go to your website and see the work. I don't know how to describe you other than this, I could put Polaroids or I could put photos of your work out on a table and someone could look at them and know that they're your work. You have this signature, I this signature vision, this creativity that is so your brand. And we just we had to have you on the podcast to dive into all things creativity, and business. So welcome to brands.
Wow, Phil, you know how to make a girl feel good, thank you.
It's how I feel. It's how I feel and listen to be here. Happy
to be here. And I love I've listened to many of your podcasts. And I really enjoy it. So I'm honored to be a part of it.
We love our clients. We love working on projects. But we get really excited when the client is in an industry that Lauren and I both get really excited about on a personal or an interest level. Our designer Cascia who did your brand identity he did my brand identity is actually trained his background is in interior design and architecture. And hopefully you see that I think a lot of people could look at our work and go oh, there is kind of like a interior or an architectural element to the way that we design. So it's such a Wow, such a special client and a project for us to be able to work on because you've got this beautiful portfolio of work that then we're interweaving your brand and your visuals and you have such a strong personal brand. It's just I don't know, it's one of I one of the most exciting projects we've worked on, I realized that I realized I was still sprinkling you with compliments, but I
just thank you well, and you know what I feel like you have also elevated my brand with the new website and just your guidance with social media that I'm always feeling like I'm trying to keep up with. So it's definitely it's definitely a team effort for sure.
Well, so Michelle, we always describe you as a complete design genius to anyone we can. I'm not even joking, I swear butter, Nia, I heard they're probably recorded calls of me calling you something something genius in multiple places. But something that that I'd love to explore today is also your business acumen. Let me set the stage for our listeners, interior design is incredibly competitive. It's also very challenging to make money in interior design. And not only that, but it's challenging to make enough money and get enough clients in interior design to actually have employees and a firm. And you figured out how to do all of that. And so I would just love to maybe go back to how it all started. And then maybe we could share your nuggets of wisdom that you've learned along the way with building a business in creativity.
Okay, sure. I mean, it's definitely been a journey, I'll say that nothing comes easy. I mean, I'll tell anybody, it has been a lot of work. I was in the corporate world before I got into design and as much as the entire time I I never really loved it and never felt like me. And I kind of resented it. But it was like my parents were old school, I did what I should I work for all these fortune 500 companies and the whole time kind of grumbling because I used to be very creative. I used to be a singer. So I would sing at night and I'd put my blue suit on by day and I was trying to resolve within myself like, I just am not happy sitting in this cubicle or in this office. But what's interesting is it's such a cliche, but I really do believe everything happens for a reason. And frankly, if it wasn't for all that corporate experience I got you know, they sent me to like negotiation schools when I worked for Aetna, like all these different trainings that were very valuable, but I didn't really appreciate them at the time. I really feel like it really helped me fine tune professionalism. And I think that that's really important in this industry is just learning how to talk to people learning how to be professional. So that definitely was a help. When I look to shift my career. I've learned that that was very valuable. So that was the first thing is understanding that this creative businesses sound really fun and when I hear people say oh my gosh, you have My dream job, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. I just wish I could do it you do. I'm like, it's sort of like when I sing and go on stage, people just don't see all the backend stuff, there's probably more not fun things in my business than there are the fun things. I mean, when I say that, you know, there's just a tremendous amount of things that are going on behind the scenes that that's the work and that people aren't seeing. So I think people just need to understand it's a real career. It's a real job. And there's a lot of work. There's accounting, which, you know, I can talk about in a second was probably one of my biggest fears, as a creative person is just like, I am not an accountant. Growing up, I probably back then they didn't have the support they had, but I had a phobia of math, and I'm thinking, how can I run a business? If I'm afraid of math, until I got to the point where it's like, yeah, it's called delegation, you basically hire somebody to do what you don't know how to do. And when I finally realized that, it kind of was a moment for me when I was like, I'm gonna do this. And I'm just gonna hire people to help me with when I say hire, it started small like part time. And now it's like, I have a bookkeeper, I have an accountant. And I have people who are doing all of the design invoicing in the office, but it just sort of grew. And my understanding was like, I just need to delegate. I know what I'm good at. And I know what I'm not good at. And I'm not ashamed to admit what I'm not good at. And I'm really okay talking about what I'm good at. And then learning how to run a business within that is the key. I think, I'm not a control freak. If somebody can do something better than me, I'm like, Great.
Could you let our listeners know how you moved from working in the corporate world to deciding I'm going to start getting paid for interior design? Like what was that journey?
The journey started when prior to getting married, my husband and I were looking around in the city for somewhere to live and anything we love we couldn't afford, and then everything that we could afford, we didn't love. And then we bumped into a guy who flips homes and basically started a first rehab on a home that led to, I don't know, probably could be maybe nine years of gutting rehabbing and flipping homes in Philadelphia. So we kind of got in, and he's not in the business. But for me, I basically ended up leaving corporate America to manage those projects. And I started seeing a whole like a kind of it was feeding me something that I haven't had in a while, I realized I could see walls coming down and start envisioning spaces. I always said, I'm like the waitress who became the CEO, I, I was learning about contractors how they work. Before I even got in this interior design business. I knew how to manage rehabbing a home. So it just evolved. Honestly, it wasn't like one day, I just, you know, I didn't know there was a thing when I was a kid interior design, that was not even a profession that crossed my mind. But as I dabbled in it and realize I started really small and people started saying, Hey, can you help me out? It was a really grassroots beginning. To be honest, it started like that. Initially, we I had a partnership for a short period of time where we were both learning together, and then really decided it was best to be on my own. And then I mean, I can't even I pinch myself, I can't even believe where I'm at today. I feel so grateful.
Well, it seems like you're very self aware. And you know when to listen to what brings you joy and happiness. And you're also not scared to say yes. And I think that combination of things is probably taking you to where you are today.
I will say that people say you should never look back. But when I think back in my 20s, about some of the opportunities that I had, but due to fear of rejection, because you're so young then and you're so consumed with the wrong things. I didn't take a few risks with regards to my singing career, that could have paid off immensely, because I was, frankly, chicken. And I think by the time I got to my late 30s, early 40s, I was like, so ready to be done with that. And I thought what do I have to lose? In 2009, the banking market and the financials, were going down the tubes, and my family started feeling the stress. I did take some time off when I had my first child. But soon after, is when I realized I need to go back to work. But I can't go back to a cubicle. I can't go back to an office. It's not who I am. And we've been doing this rehabbing. I think I can do it. And it was sort of like a dare to myself, I had nothing to lose. And I really was trying to create the second half of my life, one that I could be proud of, and one that involves taking risks. And now that I've taken risks, and I've seen how calculated risks pay off, I'm all about it. I've now learned that as an entrepreneur building a company, I'm used to feeling a little bit uncomfortable all the time. And I think that that feeling is something that I realized just means growth, like I used to be afraid of that feeling. Now I'm like, Oh, this must mean that I'm going to the next level of whatever it is that I'm doing. So I think I've acknowledged that discomfort as a positive thing that I'm going in the right direction and it's paid off big time. So now I get it. They say that wisdom is wasted on the old so true because I wish I could tell my younger self what I've learned in the last 1520 years.
It's such an inspiring story because It feels like everything is like fallen into place. Paired with hard work. Interior Design wasn't something that you liked, studied and had planned to do when you were young, and it was your dream career and you had worked at it forever. You listen, like Lauren said earlier, you listen to yourself and what you responded to, and made some decisions around that, and worked really hard to learn what you didn't know to be successful, and also remain humble through the whole thing that's like, anytime we compliment his company, even we started maybe with more compliments on this episode than any other episode and however many we've had by now. And this airs a lot of episodes, we showered you with compliments, you still don't even know how to take compliment you didn't when I met you, and you still don't now, it's like you're so freakin humble, humble, humble. And I think that's also a big part of why people like you why people like working with you, and frankly, why you're an inspiration.
Oh, that's really sweet of you. I mean, I, I am very authentic and how I approach I love people. And I want to be myself. I think my strength is how I communicate with clients, because they trust me and they know what I'm telling them as the truth. Even if they don't like what they're going to hear as far as how much their budget is going to be. I really appreciate that. So I do, I don't necessarily try to be humble. Sometimes I just don't feel worthy. But thank you. But I do know it takes a village and I have hired amazing people. I mean, everybody that's worked for me, overtime has stayed like we have a really one of the vendor representatives said to me, he's like, I love coming to your studio. I said really why he's like, because you have such good energy here. Everybody treats. This was a key. Every one of your employees treats this business like it's their own. And I thought to myself, that is probably the best compliment that any business owner could get. And that makes me feel incredibly grateful for the team I have. And I want to keep them forever. I know that people move on. But we have such a great considering are all females and sometimes feel like there's a lot of like cattiness like there's none of that we really have a great team here. And what's cool about it is that I have grown in this business. Now, I used to be hands on every day all the time. Now I'm really enjoying branding with you, for instance, growing my business, we're now have a couple projects in South Florida like things are growing. And now I'm stepping out of that every day, I still love to be involved in overseeing projects, I definitely put my stamp of approval and things, but I trust my people. So it gives me the chance to now explore new roles that I would like to create for myself. So that's been kind of cool for me to see the progress of business development. It's kind of interesting for me,
you said so many great things. And I made a note of three questions that I need to ask you is every time you answer you, I it spawns like five more questions I need to ask, but maybe let's first talk about money. I've personally experienced that discomfort, especially when you're first starting to work of putting a price on your time. And on your work. I'm curious to know if you have any advice for our listeners about billing, charging, invoicing, all of that.
Sure, there's a lot there, I think the first thing that I recognize when I started is look, I don't have a lot of credibility right now. So you have to be honest with yourself as far as what you can charge, or what you can look at, like, I'm going to charge less, because I need to learn. And there are people there that will appreciate I'm charging less while I'm learning. So you never want to be like, I'm so good at this. And therefore the rate I heard I should get his act like you have to back it up with your accomplishments, which took me a long time. That's where the work came in is like building my credibility, building my portfolio, getting a lot of different press like that happened over time. And frankly, that's when you get to ask for more money, right? So I think everybody needs to be honest with themselves and look at the landscape and be really critical themselves. And I don't want people to be hard on themselves. But you have to be honest with yourself. If you have your first project and interior design, you might as well look at it as like a gift and maybe minimal coverage and you work. I feel like there's a lot of people in this generation, whatever generation that is, I'm just gonna say this generation that there's just this lack of work ethic that I feel is predominant more than it's ever been in that like, yes, sometimes you're gonna have to really work hard. And I hustled and now I don't have a problem asking for money, because I feel like I've earned it. What I would say is you should never do anything for free. I think that it's a loaded question, because I used to be embarrassed to admit how I made my money to my clients like oh, you know, I just remember like skirting around their questions. Now I'm at a point where I'm just so clear. And this took time again, it took time, but I'm so clear on how I charge why I charge what I charge that people are like they understand. I'm very transparent. They appreciate it. And I've gotten more confident just asking for what I know that I deserve. So that's kind of one part of your question. The other part with regarding to accounting, it's so important and just in my business but interior design. There are so Oh, many details down to like, trim down to there's all different tax laws. It's very complicating, get an accountant paid, I hate people. They're like, Well, I think I think I can like do the payroll, somebody does my payroll, I pay whatever, 50 bucks a month, whatever it is 70 bucks a month, you have to learn to pay for help. I will say that a man.
I mean, Phil's learned that
for sure. A frickin man. Even when it's scary. I mean, when do you ever regret it? That's the thing. You look back on it. And even in 10 years for us of business. There are a few projects that I've done that I took a little bit of a risk, Facebook ads, stuff like that. But even then, even when things didn't go, Well, I don't think I regret any instance, where I've hired someone for help I maybe put a lot of thought into before spending the money. And it may have taken me a little while to say yes, but I've never regretted it. It's kind of nice to hear that for people that are really wrapped in that point.
And I think this is sort of what I think has helped me with business is I've always looked at the big picture, even when it comes down to like clients saying, Well, I don't think I owe this or I don't think I have that. And I think okay, it's whatever, a couple 100 bucks, I don't like I don't sweat the small stuff I don't that's just not my personality. And I think if you're somebody who's really rigid, and you're into the details, you really have to examine. Also, there might be some people that shouldn't be business owners, you just have to, you have to be honest with yourself of what your strengths and weaknesses are. But you have to think bigger, the only way that I grew was I had to spend money, which sounds crazy, I had to spend money on branding, for instance, I had to spend money a few times over on websites, I've had to spend money on employees. And every time I take on an extra employee, that's when the discomfort hits like, oh, there's that feeling again, or, Oh, I'm gonna expand my office like, oh, there's that discomfort again. But it is paid off every single time. If you try to control everything, you'll never make it as a business owner, you can't you won't grow, you'll just stay a sole proprietor who will be doing bookkeeping 80% of the time, you know, like I, you just have to understand that you have to grow my accountant who I'm friends with at this point, he told me something. When I just started the business that kind of stuck with me. And I said, you know, what do I do if I feel like overwhelmed and I have too much work because he deals a lot of businesses. He goes, you just hire someone else? And I'm like, really? He's like, Yeah, if you have that kind of business, like I thought you should just say no, he's like, you just hire someone. And I have a friend in the business who didn't who was really struggling with paying other people. And she didn't grow. Right. So that was great advice. And I've learned like, Okay, I have to spend more to make more, if that makes sense. So I think that's perfect. So important. Yeah,
let's talk about hiring. you've assembled an amazing, kind, resourceful, smart, empowered team. And I want to know what's going through your mind when you're thinking about hiring someone? What are you looking for? Does their experience matter? Do you go more on gut feeling what's going on in your mind,
I would say that a lot of it is a gut feeling. I feel like one of my strengths is I can meet people pretty quickly. And I don't want to say some I don't It's not like a judging thing I just a lot of it is gut, obviously a lot of is their background for whatever it is I'm interviewing them for. So if it's a very technical position, I want to make sure they're bringing what I need with regards to their technical skills. I think for me as a small business owner, and as I was saying earlier, like having a team, we have such a good vibe, I don't want anybody messing with it. So I want to make sure somebody I bring into my tribe is really going to blend well. I look for hard workers, I look for professionalism. I mean, I can't tell you how many people I've met. And I've been shocked that that was what they called an interviewer. You know, they're not professional. That's not what I want. I want somebody who knows how to talk. In today's day and age with texting and everything. People need to learn how to speak to other people, you need to know how to communicate, that's huge to me. So it's a combination of a lot of things. I have a small company, so I I really a personalities matter. But I think for me, it's work ethic, I interviewed a lot of people not that long ago, and it was, I don't know, it's just a generational thing. They want to come in and be at a certain level. And I'm like, we all got to work together. There's so much you need to learn about this business before you can be a senior designer. But I would just say I guess, hard work, good work ethic, good communicator, and obviously qualified for the job, you know,
and you also have an incredible ability to see a set a space and sense the kind of energy that you want that space to have. And I'm kind of realizing now that that's also translating to the vibe that you want your business to have like the energy of your business and the people who work for your business. I feel like you're probably really great at pinpointing the atmosphere of your business that you want to have.
Yeah, I mean, listen My employees are really good to me. And I'm really good to them. I take care of my employees, I think that they like working for me because I'm fair. And I'm professional. And I can be flexible. And I tell people who have interviewed, I'm like, Look, I'm not a big firm. So you may not get all the bells and whistles, but you certainly get more of a family feel you're going to have flexibility in ways, you know, there's pluses and minuses of working in a commercial interior design firm versus, you know, a boutique residential interior design firm. So, yeah,
amazing. Now, you mentioned before that one of your strengths was the ability to communicate with clients. And I want to know, what tactics you have for developing a relationship with clients for kind of tiptoeing that line between client and friendship. Because design is such a vulnerable process. And any other advice you have for people with managing clients? Ooh, that could be a
podcast.
Oh, you're the best to ask you about? Oh, my gosh.
All right. Where do I start with that one? Okay. So the good news is, is a lot of my clients are friends now. So I've had some wonderful clients who have turned in be friends, just because it's, it's just clicked. I'm also still very professional. So like, while we're in the process, I'm very aware of not crossing boundaries. But at the same time, there's certain people I meet along this journey. I'm like, they're amazing people. And like, I tell people, before we start, I'm like, I just need you to understand this. I am in your wallet, I am in your marriage, and I'm in your pocketbook. So we have to like each other. This is a mutual relationship. And we both have to like each other. And it really is weirdly personal I minored, in psychology in college, and I have to tell you, there is so much psychology that I've always kind of been interested in anyway, I've always been very intuitive or whatever. But like, I pretty much get people very quickly. And I think that I will tell you, I've had difficult clients too. And I've gotten really good at handling them as well. And a lot of it is all about setting expectations. I tell people, no matter what, whether you hire me, or you don't hire me, I want you to understand exactly what you're getting into. Because I don't want it to be uncomfortable for you. I want you to go in this so excited to work with us knowing the money you're gonna spend. And then it's really pleasant. But you know, there's always curveballs.
I love that transparency. You had said earlier, maybe it's not for everyone to be a business owner. And I thought about that for a second. I think it's so true. But I think you've proven that you're the perfect business owner, you've got some really good qualities that if you weren't born with them, you've learned them maybe sometimes the hard way, I feel that, and it's cool. It's It must feel good to be, you have to just look back. And I know I need to do the same thing. But you have to like instead of always kind of looking forward. And here's where we're going to actually pause and go, Wow, look at this thing that has my name on it. Like, that's pretty cool.
I will tell you, Phil, I have just started to like, I need that I need to do that more. Because I don't know, I'm my worst critic. So I acknowledge that. But when I talk to people, especially people haven't seen me in many years, or whatever, they're like, wait a minute, I have to remind myself how far I've come sometimes I'm so focused on moving forward, that to your point to give myself every now and then a little pat on the back like and I frickin deserve it. I have worked really, really hard to be where I am. And I will tell you, it takes a lot of grit. It takes a lot of work. And I should be proud of myself. So thank you for that reminder, Phil, because I do I do. I am proud of myself. I mean, it comes with, you know, some days are more challenging than others. But I am very grateful. That's for sure.
Now I have kind of a two part question. Just to wrap things up. Okay, I want to know, one important lesson you learned from your most challenging project. And I want to know, one important lesson you learned from your most fulfilling project? Hmm.
That's two good questions. What I will say just to preface this is that one thing I will say about all of my projects, is that no matter how fine tuned our processes are, something will always go wrong. And every single project after we do kind of a wrap up news meeting, I always tell my team, we learned another lesson this time. The first thing I want to say is you never stop learning, no matter how long you've been in this business. And that has given me humility to like for as good as we think that we can be things happen, and how do we learn from that, so it never happens again, and usually that thing will never happen again. And there'll be some other strange, crazy thing but okay, so that I just want to preface that. So I would say what my business has taught me in a positive way is that I obviously deal with people with a lot of means, okay, so we're dealing with a lot of high net worth people. And it has so taught me how money can be so elegant and kind and like when I look at the people that have a lot and how they choose to treat people, and then honestly, I see how money looks when you've decided that you're entitled and so for me personally, it has helped me be a better person because I see that you can have the same amount of money and treat people differently. I really admire those clients who are incredibly wealthy. And yet they're the first ones to ask a contractor. If he needs a glass of water. They're the first people to just be grateful for it, you know, and so kind and, and they treat me like a professional instead of a maid. Like, it's very interesting. So for me, personally, this business has taught me a lot about what a good person looks like. So I don't know, that's kind of the answer to that question. Yeah. Yeah. Difficult clients, I think I've learned how to try to weed them out before I get them.
Good advice. Yeah, okay. I
mean, I don't know how to say it. I don't always win it. But there are people that just need more psychological health, and they need interior design. And I don't know if I, I don't know, if I always catch them in time. I've had some really challenging conversations with clients. And I think what's sad about clients who aren't either not happy people, or just obsessed with controlling the processes, the projects has never turned out as well. It's a shame like, I wish I could just tell them, You need to let go a little bit. You're spending all this money an interior designer, and you want to direct everything we do? And question everything we do. And then after a while, what happens is honestly, I'm like, they'll say, Oh, dude, well, I like this better. Great. I like this better. Great. And, you know, that's hard for me when I realized that they're not trusting us with the process, or they're just not used to letting go. And therefore, they're kind of wasting their money with us. If you really know more than me, you should do it. So I don't know if that answers the question. I think, overall, we've had tough moments. As a business owner, that's when your job gets real. That's hard to be a business owner to have to either fire a client or deal with some sort of uncomfortable conflict. I don't look for that. But I've had to deal with it. But it's made me a better professional. And it's given me more confidence. I've had to put my big girl pants on a few times. And it's a little scary, but I do it because I have to. So that's what I yeah,
really, really great advice, weeding out clients, that might not be a good fit from the beginning. And also knowing what battles are worth fighting, you know?
Yeah. And that is and to your point, the battles worth fighting is such a good point. Because there have been times where the big picture thing comes back. It's like, you know what, they want to fight with me over $100 over some shipping term, whatever it is, I'm like, Just get rid of it. My sanity and my mental health is not worth that. Now, I know people who would never do they're like, Oh, I'm sorry. You know, the client owes us that and he and I think really like life is too short for me. I don't know maybe it's old age. I'm just living in the moment and I don't have time for BS. So
what okay, what a what a way to wrap that up. That's sign off we've ever had sign off we've had in over 100 episodes well over I thoroughly enjoyed this. It's so interesting. I guess maybe I never thought about how many similarities there are between our businesses. But I think it's one of the reasons we get along so well we get each other. We but we all have you know we've worked together and really strive for excellence and I'm so proud of what we've created together people if you've taken the time to listen to this episode, you must go to Michelle's website we'll link to it in the notes you must extraordinary their x ray we are go there we are
so proud. So proud to have worked with someone who is as brilliant as you and I don't kill
me you guys have me completely blushing here. And the truth is is you guys are the brilliance behind some of the visuals. So it is a T Bosch Thank you.
I mean, it was an honor to figure out what we could do to complement your work without being boring. Like what a challenge.
It wasn't. It was a great challenge because it's it's you've got such a strong brand way before you even met us. People should go check you out on the Instagram you post often on there, you post great, great content, and we just appreciate you hanging out with us on brand therapy.
Thanks for having me. I mean, I've enjoyed listening to the podcast. So to be a guest is an honor and I really appreciate that. Thanks so much.
