194. How do you pitch yourself for podcasts? (f. Danielle Burek)
Wondering how to get on podcasts you love? 🎙️ Our expert guest today will dish on the details! Hosts Phil and Lauren meet with Danielle Burek, Talent Relations Associate at LemonPie.fm, to discuss how she books clients on podcasts through cold outreach. You’ll learn the art of crafting the perfect email, creating a target list, following up, and so much more.
Episode transcription
Lauren
Wish you could get responses to your cold emails?
Phil
Wondering how to get on more podcasts,
Lauren
Want to reach new audiences?
phil
Then you're gonna love this episode with Danielle Burek. Danielle is a talent relations associate who helps her clients get on podcasts. And she's absolutely brilliant.
Lauren
Grab a pen and paper because you're gonna want to take notes.
Phil
Let's get started.
Listener have I got a story for you to set up the conversation we're having today. So if you have your own podcast that people listen to, you can probably relate to this. I open my inbox daily, as a creator, I get pitches from brands, Phil, can we work with you on your YouTube channel, I have those. But then I also have emails that I I'm not going to say nine times out of 10, I'm going to say 95 times out of 100. We'll just delete, because I have a long to do list as it is and I'm late on almost everything. I don't need to be pitched a stranger to be on Brand Therapy, because I already have a list of people that I want to have on Brand Therapy. So, setting the stage. I get a pitch that was better than probably any other pitch I've received. It definitely is in my top five. Let's give it that and thought about the guest realized the guest kind of conflicted with what we offer, so it didn't really feel responsible to have this guest on the podcast. But I was so impressed with the pitch, which included a review of our podcast. I said to sweet Danielle, I don't want that guest on my podcast, I want you on the podcast. And that's what we're doing here today because Danielle literally sent me the winning podcast pitch that maybe not winning according to your boss because it didn't land your client on the today's episode but it landed you You are so good at your job. And I just feel like you have so much insight for our our listener here Brand Therapy so welcome.
Lauren
I need to get some credit in this situation because getting Danielle on the podcast was my idea Phil.
Phil
You're right I do that occasionally. I just take credit.
Lauren
Phil forwarded the pitch email from Danielle to me and said let me know if you think having her as a conflict of interest. And then I said I don't think she's the right fit sad face. This is straight from the archive.
phil
This is an inside world I take credit and I just I'm like the public voice but in you know like in Star Wars Queen Amidala there's the one that's all the show. But then the one that's dressed in civilian clothes that actually makes the decision that's Lauren.
lauren
But then Phil wrote same I just like the girl who's pitching. And then I said why don't we ask to have Danielle on instead about how to do a good pitch. And then nervous laughter L O L and then Phil goes good fucking idea and went after it like a sniper. And then here you are.
danielle
Oh my gosh, here I am. It's such an honor. I literally one of my favorite emails I've ever received was you guys invited me on the podcast. So thank you so so much.
phil
But it feels like you're ready for it. You have this impressive microphone, your media ready. I mean, this is the moment.
Danielle
Honestly, it makes perfect sense. I mean, I work full time podcasting. And this is my first time I've ever been actually asked to be on a podcast except for one time I did go on a friend's podcast to talk about Disney plus, like teenage drama. So I have been on a podcast before as a guest. This will be a very different conversation than high school musical The musical The Series Drama. So I'm ready though.
Phil
We could probably talk about that. We won't but we could I’ll have you know. Lauren, can you read the first few sentences of that email since you've got it up?
lauren
Yeah, I can.
phil
Obviously I don't have it up because I'm irresponsible. But you have it up so.
Lauren
Well, here's the thing is that Phil, Danielle sent an initial email that you ignored but then she followed up so there's actually two already maybe the opening sentences of the first two emails perfect. Hey Phil, exclamation mark. Huge fan of Brand Therapy here. I'm hooked. To show some support for the five star content I just left a review to match downward arrow pointing emoji screenshot of her review and then goes on.
phil
I just want to say I didn't ignore that I noticed it but I didn't reply in a timely fashion because I'm really behind on emails.
Lauren
Daniel followed up six days later. You're right sorry, I shouldn't have assumed that you ignored it but you didn't get to it.
phil
I read in a second. It came in, and I thought about it, it lived rent free in my mind for those six days, and I was traveling at that time, so, you know, yeah,.
Danielle
It's totally okay.
lauren
I don't know why I'm like on you this episode Phil. Sorry.
Phil
I ignore those emails because we don't need guests really? I mean, that's not true. We've maybe said yes to three out of probably 200 pitches. It's a tough business. It's a tough industry knowing no other podcasts are probably obviously more receptive to guests. But we really get bombarded, which I'm humbled and honored, but it's not something I immediately need. But I was so taken with the fact that you went and reviewed the podcasts which every podcast host, adores, appreciates. And then you put a screenshot of it to prove it, which I think was just that winning. Oh, my God, it was like, if I ignore you, then I'm an asshole is literally how I felt.
lauren
Yep. So second email. Six days later, Daniel. All right. Hey, Phil, exclamation mark. So keeping it friendly. Always a friend bubbling up my previous message in case your inbox is as hectic as mine. And then you included a GIF of someone being flooded with emails at their desk. And then you continued. So I know you probably weren't expecting like a replay of this email interaction, I guess maybe just start is the your tone of voice is exceptional.
danielle
Thank you.
Lauren
In your emails is this tone of voice generally consistent with everyone? Or do you kind of cater it to whoever's on the receiving end?
Danielle
That is a great question. Also, I have to stop you, Lauren, because Thank you for saying GIF. Everybody gives me such a hard time for pronouncing GIF. GIF instead of GIF.
Phil
Yeah, it sounds ugly.
Lauren
Generate it.
Danielle
No, it doesn't always stay consistent. I mean, generally, I'm going to be me and emails. But for example, if I am pitching, a Harvard podcast, I'm probably not going to show up in their inbox with a GIF, or something like that. It's going to be a little bit more straight to the point. And that's a good indication, maybe we shouldn't fluff it up with fun emojis and GIFs. If I'm emailing Harvard, you know? But in general, I'm going to be me and podcast. And that's very me to be friendly and excited. And honestly, I feel like in the podcast world, most people who are podcast personalities can get on that same level. But I do try to match like the energy of the podcaster, for sure.
Phil
This is such a tough world that you operate in, what is it? Like, first of all, to be the person that pitches guests for podcasters? How do people receive you generally,
Danielle
Some people receive me with wide open arms, like you guys, were you were so friendly and kind to me, other people will literally just never reply to me, which is totally fine. Never hurts my feelings. Other people will say no, remove me from your list when we don't have a list because everything is very personalized. Some people think it's like a subscription email. But people are generally kind, honestly, because I think they see the effort that goes into the emails, and I am not just here to get something for myself or my client, I really want to like add value to the person who's opening by email, and I really consider how they're going to feel when they open it. So people are generally kind.
Phil
Great. It's also interesting, since a lot of work is to find the right podcast, and then you put in a fair amount of work to just be ignored. So how do you like measure your success or even report back to your client? I don't know the ROI of their investment let's say that's tough.
Danielle
Oh, yeah. 100% It is so much work to most of the time be left on read. I think though, the time that goes into crafting these pitches really does end up paying off where the wind rate is a lot higher than your average cold email outreach. Just to give you a glimpse of what we do, where I work, which is Lemon Pie. We're a PR company that focus solely on podcasting. So my entire job all day is to email podcasters. So it's all I do I live and breathe, emailing podcasters and building relationships with them. That's my entire job. So I'm gonna get the client what they need, you know, and we're gonna make sure that they see the ROI but it is is a longer game. Podcasting as a means for brand awareness and thought leadership growth? It's a long game. I mean, even like when a podcaster does say yes, sometimes that recording doesn't happen until two months later, and it doesn't go live till four months later. So there's a lot of client education that has to go into where the ROI is. And it does eventually start happening, and usually kind of happens all at once eventually. But yeah, it's a difficult industry, for sure. But I do think that the ROI is for sure there, it's just harder to measure, I think.
Lauren
Your email subject line is really interesting, at least the one that we saw where you have the the envelope emoji with a little heart sticker on it, and then it says a note from a fan, and then plus brand therapy, guest idea. Do you use the same email subject with everyone or you switch it up?
Danielle
Switch it up, depending on the show. I think for me, when I'm leading with the unknown from a fan, it's because I truly want the podcaster whoever I'm emailing to know. first things first, I just want to tell you, I love your show. And that's not me trying to sway you into saying yes, to me, this is my main goal here is to tell you, I think you have a great show. Even if you say no to me, I'm just going to be excited that we chatted. But it just varies. Sometimes we'll do like an episode title idea for the subject line, something catchy. I love including emojis in my subject lines, because I think it sets it apart. Me too. Yeah, it really sets it apart. I think. I mean, I can't tell you the last time I got an email with an emoji in the headline. And if I did I, I would open it. So yeah, it varies for sure.
Lauren
Now, how long would it take you to research the podcast, decide what podcast you want craft the customized email like I imagined that could take like, over an hour. Is that true? Like how long would it take?
Danielle
Yeah, I mean, it depends on the show. If I'm familiar with the show, or I really instantly connect with the show like your guys's show, for example, I really instantly connected with you. And really instantly was hooked. Like that's so true. I'm hooked. I'm brand new, huge fan of the show. And I'm subscribed and I regularly listen now. There's other shows in other niches that like are a little more technical, that's going to take me way longer than it would take me to do a show that's like an instant, oh my gosh, these are my people I can I know exactly how to talk to them and what they might want to hear about. So it can range but I would say 30 minutes is probably the minimum, it can go all the way up to like an hour to an hour and a half, depending on the show.
Phil
I love that you also actually listened to the podcast before it's horrible. I guess it's just a quantity that I get of these emails. But I assume that people are just saying that I don't actually think that they even listen to it. But you actually listened to it before emailing us, which is so cool. Yeah,
Danielle
I think that it's just it's really important to know who you're talking to. And I think that that is one of the things that can be really difficult about being on the receiving end of these emails is that it really can feel like, you're just saying this stuff because you want something from me. And for me, it's like I'm trying to create as genuine of an experience, even if it takes me 30 minutes, and it's gonna take you 30 seconds to read that email. I want that 30 seconds to feel authentic and genuine and real. And if I'm not being honest and truthful, when I say I listened to your show, I think that's going to come through. And so even if maybe I'm wrong about that, and people really do just listen to anybody who says that they listen to the podcast, I just personally want to listen to the podcast because it helps me get to know the person I'm reaching out to. But also because I want to be honest, when I'm reaching out, like, hey, I really do like your podcast and enjoy it. And I'm learning things from it or whatever it is.
Lauren
If someone wants to be a guest on a podcast, other than hiring Lemon Pie, what do you recommend they do? Like how can they figure out how to get in touch with someone? How many podcasts should they reach out to like, do you have could you just sort of lay that out for us?
Danielle
Yeah, absolutely. I think to start with, you need to figure out what kind of audience you can help. Not even necessarily starting with I need to get in front of this specific audience because this specific audience is my customer, but instead being like how can I help an audience. And those might not always be the same off the bat because a lot of times podcasting is not utilized for a direct purchase and a lot more times it's utilized for brand awareness and thought leadership and things like that. So you're gonna have to kind of get away from this idea of like, I need to consistently 100% of the time be in front of customers and customers alone. But once you figure out the kind of audience that you can help that you can provide value to, I think there's some really great tools out there, one of them's called Rephonic, which literally is just a database of a million podcasts of every podcast that exists. And you can search for, if you want to have branding conversations on brand podcasts, you can search, branding podcasts, and it's gonna bring up of every size show a bunch of branding podcasts. So that's a really great tool for finding things. Another great tool is just utilizing your network, putting yourself out there, whether it's posting on LinkedIn, hey, I want to start doing some podcast interviews, I would love to have conversations about X, Y, and Z. If that's something that would be helpful to your listeners, please reach out.
There's a few different ways, but I would say on the number of how many you should reach out to, it's probably a lot more than you think. I wouldn't necessarily give a specific number, because it just depends on what your goal is. But it's gonna be a lot more no’s than it is yes’s and when you're starting to reach out to podcasts, you have to be ready to be shut down like a million times. Also going for way smaller shows, I just think that like people immediately want to go on Joe Rogan. I don't personally, but some people want to go on Joe Rogan and they're immediately shooting for Joe Rogan, when it's like, you can't just immediately go to that level of caliber of show you have to work your way up and create content with smaller shows and get your feet wet in the podcasting world. And also, those niche smaller shows are honestly a lot of times way more impactful than these huge Joe Rogan sized shows that are number one on the charts every day.
phil
I'm just amazed that you stay so positive if you're getting rejected. I think by the way, you probably have a lesser rejection rate than the average pitcher. Definitely, definitely. I think you're very good at this. But I just love how positive you stay.
danielle
Yeah, thank you. I mean, the relationships that can come out of it, even if I get a no make it so worth it. So I love podcasting, and I love podcasters. And so for me, it's like I just am thankful I get to do this every day. And I get to build relationships with people in an industry that I'm really passionate about. That helps me to stay positive. But also, I think if I was cold, emailing and having really boring emails, I probably wouldn't be as happy and positive. But I have a lot of fun crafting these emails. I have always been like obsessed with writing emails, literally, when I was 12 years old, I would go to Chipotle have a good burrito and immediately come home to my iPod touch to send a literal 300 word email to corporate to tell them about how great my burrito was. That is like that's the life. That's the life right? I've just always been an email girl. I just love it. So I think that that's how I stay optimistic about it. But thanks for noticing. I really appreciate it.
phil
What did you study? Like? What's your background?
danielle
I studied communications. And I have my own podcast. It's not really a thing anymore. But I had my own podcast. So I knew that I wanted to do something in like PR and marketing and then love to the podcasting space realized I could do both. And now that's what I do. And Lemon Pie was like my dream job. And now I have it. So yeah,
phil
That's amazing. How did they find you? Or how did you find them?
danielle
I actually found them. It's kind of a crazy story. I applied for a job in 2018. With them. It was the first time I'd ever heard of any sort of job that was specifically like, towards the podcasting space, got all the way to the final interview and didn't get the job in 2018. And it was one of those jobs that I always was like, man, what would have happened if that would have worked out. I just feel like that would have been so cool if that would have worked out. And I don't usually feel that way about things. Usually I'm like that wasn't for me just move on. And this was one where I was just, I wonder what would have happened if that would have worked out like always thinking about it. So I went into a different career path with a job in content and music. And I did that for a while and then got laid off during COVID. And immediately I was like I'm reaching out to Lemon Pie. I'm still thinking about them. It is literally been like three to four years at this point. And I'm still thinking about them. So I reached out to them and they ended up having a job for me. So it's kind of a really long. It was a really long time of thinking about this job and thinking about making a move into the podcasting industry and all of that. So It's really kind of fun, though, that it ended up working out. Because now I know what would have happened if I had gotten that job because I do have that job.
Lauren
I love it.
phil
You know, that's such a great story. I'm glad you told that.
lauren
Also, Danielle, you're super organized. I can tell like you sent us yesterday an overview of your approach with pitching, which I definitely want to get into before the end of our episode. But before we do that, I wanted to know if you use any systems to keep track of when you follow up with someone after the first attempt, and if they say no, how do you check in with them again? Like what walk us through your timing for everything?
danielle
Yeah, absolutely. So we use HubSpot. And it's we kind of just use it like it's sales, but it's not sales. So we move everything through a pipeline. So I always have my eyes on where an email is at and I can go in and find out when the last time I was emailing somebody and all of that. But super simple. I mean, it's it's nothing crazy. As far as our follow up timeline goes, we tried to be really respectful of people's inboxes. And usually give five to seven days before a follow up and never more than four total, we always try to make those like very personal as well. So the follow up process is very fun. But that has just as much intention in it as the process of writing the initial pitch, which I think also tends to set like our pitches apart.
lauren
Amazing. And then if someone says, No, do you follow up with them later? Are you just That's it?
danielle
We respect the No. Wow, I think the only scenario where we would go back to somebody who had said no, was if they gave us a very specific reason as to why. No, your client doesn't have enough experience in this. And then maybe a year later, our client has now launched a product that is specifically in that space that they didn't have experience in at the time, we might go back to the podcaster and say, Hey, if you are interested in still having conversations around this topic, we know that he wasn't he or she didn't have this experience back then, but wanted to tell you about this exciting new development. But that is a very, very edge case. And the majority of the time, we want to respect the no because for us, it's it really is about relationship. And if someone says no, the only real pushback I'm gonna come back with is just can you tell me what you're looking for? Because I don't want to send you another client that you're not excited about, or Iaguest idea that you're not excited about? So that's kind of where I would take a no conversation. But no, not much pushback.
Lauren
Love it. Okay, so you sent us the email. It was two days ago,
Phil
It was two days ago. So I had time to marinate on it. It was genius.
Lauren
Excited to chat on Thursday, smiley face emoji in the subject line classic Danielle, the Danielle stamp. And then you sent over a brief outline that you thought would make the biggest impact for listeners. Is this something that you recommend that your clients do before they appear on a podcast?
danielle
100% I think that the more information you can give a podcaster, the better, because after the point that they say, yes. In the beginning, you do want to like be respectful of their time, you don't want to overload them with a million words in an email. But if you're coming up on time to chat with a podcaster, I totally recommend to anybody going on a podcast if there's something specific that they want to cover, or something that they think that would be helpful for the podcaster absolutely 100% Send it over and then you leave it in the podcasters hands as to whether they want to cover that or not. But I just find it to be helpful. And then it just it makes it so everybody feels a little more prepared, because sometimes podcasting can be a little nerve racking.
Phil
Well lucky for you, we want to cover what you sent over because I think it's really smart. Having people in their minds, they're going well, yes, I could have a company do this and Lemon Pie would be a great option. Obviously, it worked with us for a good case study will kind of work because but now you know, you would have taken a note, okay. They don't want anyone that's a direct conflict that offers a branding service. For example, like I wouldn't want to have someone on our podcast that offers the services someone could hire instead of hiring us, which makes sense. So you're able to make that note at HubSpot and you'll be able to continue pitching us especially now since we know you.
Lauren
You've got like a VIP pass.
Danielle
I love to be a VIP thank you.
Phil
But I actually I also trust your recommendations because of how much work goes into everything before you send an email and it's really smart. Let's talk about those people your your kind of pitch criteria and so cute. Of course he has something for you each initial or each letter of the word pitch.
Danielle
Yeah. So it is kind of cute, I would agree. So it's P, personalization. So include personalization. And personalization does not just mean putting somebody's name in an email, it's actually understanding the person that you're talking to what's gonna make them smile, what's gonna give them an amazing experience, and how might they want to be talked to. If it's Harvard, let's treat them like Harvard. If it's Phil and Lauren, we're going to treat them like Phil and Lauren, but personalizing everything.
The next is I, which is intent. So the intention should not only be to benefit yourself or your client, it should be to add value to the podcaster, or to whatever platform you're reaching out to really this pitch method can be applied to anything, I'm just specifically speaking on podcasting, because that's where my expertise is, but you want to add value to the person that you're reaching out to. So what kind of conversations would benefit the listeners of Brand Therapy? What do they want to hear? I should not send some random non related pitch, which I know happens all the time to podcasters, where it's like, oh, my gosh, why is this person in my email talking about supplements, when I have a branding show, that makes no sense. So just really looking to add value and how you can make it beneficial for the podcaster and not just yourself.
The T is truth. Clickbait might work for the Paul Brothers, but it does not work. If you're trying to have a genuine connection and conversation on a podcast. You definitely do not want to hype up your experience to an extent where you might get into a conversation that you aren't actually an expert in, that is not going to benefit you, it's not going to benefit the podcaster. And it's probably not going to reach the people you're trying to reach anyways. So it's not worth it to fake your experience, or make it sound way different than it really is. It's just not worth it. And it's so awkward. If you get stuck in that conversation and you're frozen and I can't answer that question, or I don't know what I'm talking about.
The next thing is consideration. So I've said this already a couple of times, but you really want to consider how is the reader of this email going to feel? Are they going to feel that I'm reaching out to them just to use them for something? Are they going to feel like I really know them. And I really value their time, and I don't want to take away their time by giving them this massive email that might not be beneficial for them. Also considering how can I make this an easy yes or no without having a million follow up questions to come in order to get to the point of saying yes. So certain ways that we might do that is like, if I know that my client had a really great conversation on a podcast two weeks ago, I might include that in my email and say, just to get a feel for how this person talks on podcast, here's their recent appearance on this show, rather than them having to come back and say, Hey, can you send me some recent podcasts that this person has been on? So just making it really easy for them to give a really clear yes or no answer? And both answers are okay. But that is where the consideration piece comes in, is you just really want to consider that like these people, you guys, the people who are getting these emails are getting a million a day. And so how are you going to make your email different and also be respectful of time and energy that goes into reading the email?
And then the last one is help. How can we help you? For us a lot of times, that's a five minute favor, whether that's writing an authentic review something that's true. Giving a podcast or a review is like a 100% the best way to support your favorite podcasts. And so we should absolutely be doing that for every podcast we love. If you're listening to this, please leave a review on this podcast and hype up Phil and Lauren is the best way to support podcasts. So five minute favorites, do something kind leave a review, go authentically interact with their social media content with no strings attached. If they see your name come up a few times elsewhere and they're gonna go to that girl just email me that's great, but also no strings attached. I just want to go hype up your content, so that's what I'm going to do. And then if you do get a yes and you do get to go on the show or you do get to connect with the person you're trying to connect to continuing that relationship, continuing to support them, continuing to cheer them on. If you come across an opportunity you think would be great for them. Give them that opportunity. It shouldn't be a transactional relationship. It should. Podcasting is such a beautiful medium because you get to chat and you get to have a conversation and get to know somebody. And so that relationship should totally continue going forward. And you should just continue to try and support the people that have given you an opportunity to come and talk about what you do. So that's pitch P. I. T. C. H.
Phil
Amazing. You’ve given our listeners, so many things to think about. Obviously, you've not only represented lemon pie beautifully, I hope your boss listens to this. If not, like send them this please. Okay. Because you're just so impressive. And you've also given people that are, you know, maybe before going and working with an agency, maybe people try this out on their own, you've also given some really valuable tips for those people. And we just appreciate we all know Lauren loves specifics, and you've given us rightfully specific specifics, and you're just the best. Yes, you have a VIP entry to our inbox. It's been such a pleasure to have you on Brand Therapy .
Danielle
It was so wonderful to get to chat with you. And I just love this. I'm so glad that we are friends now and we can chat and hang out.
lauren
Absolutely.
phil
Absolutely.
Oh, what a joy. Danielle it was so great to meet you and have you on this episode. I love the turn of events. You are pitching a podcast guest to us and we actually invited you. Thank you for sharing so much with our listeners. Listener, I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you enjoyed this little chat. I know we certainly did. If you did, we would mean the world to us if you just take an extra second, head over to Apple podcasts and leave us review five star five star that helps other people discover this podcast. We work very hard to create for you.
Oh we have some good episodes coming up. Some very good episodes coming up. Get ready for those next week. As always, thanks for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy. See you later.
