197. How do you master business and creativity? (f. Jeffrey Madoff)
How do you make a business out of creativity? 👨🏼🎨 Today's Brand Therapy guest will teach you how. Brand strategists and hosts Phil and Lauren meet with Jeffrey Madoff, an author, agency founder, director, producer, and professor who's an expert at building creative careers. If you're wondering how to get into a money-making mindset as a creative, you'll love this episode!
Episode transcription
Phil
Wish you were more business savvy?
Lauren
Not sure if you're pricing yourself correctly?
phil
Feeling like you need to pivot for success?
Lauren
Wondering how you can be a master of both business and creativity?
Phil
Today's guest Jeffrey Madoff is an author. He's a producer. He's a thought leader, and educator who will teach you all of the things and more.
Lauren
Let's get started.
phil
Listener, I'm so excited for this conversation today. You know from past episodes, if you've hung out with us, that we often have our friends, we have clients with people that we know, on the podcast. What you don't know behind the scenes is we often get pitched guests from all over the world to participate. And normally we say no, but I would say literally one in 100 instances, a pitch will come across our desk and I think, wow, this person sounds fascinating. And that is exactly what happened with our new friend. I think we're gonna be new friends Jeffrey, Jeffrey Madoff is on Brand Therapy today. He comes from such an incredible background and interesting perspective in branding, fashion, film theater. We're gonna dive into this, and we're just so excited to meet you and have you with us. So welcome.
Jeffrey
Well, thank you. Thank you very much for having me on. I hope you feel as good afterwards.
Lauren
I'm sure we will. I mean, it seems like really, you're kind of an an OG, if you will, in the branding space. I mean, your career has been so incredible, as Phil mentioned, and a part of why we were really intrigued about you and having you a guest on the show is because it seems like you've really mastered that kind of conversion or like that amalgamation of business and the arts. And so my first question for you is, Have you always been entrepreneurial?
Jeffrey
I have always been entrepreneurial. I guess, as I got older, I concluded that the main reason I was entrepreneurial is that I was unemployable. So it was a good idea to start my own business if I wanted to have that income. But I come by it. Quite honestly, my mom and dad were entrepreneurs. They had their own business, my sister is an entrepreneur, she has her own business, a retail store, very high end women's fashion. So I never thought about, oh, my goal is to get a great job. I never thought that way. I always thought about, you know, starting my own businesses, because that's what I saw growing up. That was a behavior that I kind of modeled.
Lauren
So you had a class or currently have a class, I believe on creative careers. Oh, you've written a book about that. And we got to dedicate a website to that endeavor. I want to know, what are some things off the bat that you see creatives get wrong, or like do incorrectly when actually building a career for themselves in the arts?
Jeffrey
Well, I think there's a really fundamental thing that happens with almost everybody. And that is that dichotomy, looking at it very binary, that I'm either creative or not creative, and thinking about creativity and what creativity is, it's taking an idea that starts in your head somewhere, and actualizing that idea, be at a play, be at a movie, theater, podcast, be at any kind of business. So I would say that entrepreneurship is a creative act.
And people to get into this. Well, you know, I'm not really creative, I'm more, you know, left brain, which is more spatial and organizational. None of that's true. The brain doesn't work that way. It's something that started with a neuroscientist Roger Sperry, he ended up winning the Nobel Prize for his research that he did in the 60s. He won the Nobel Prize in the 70s for his bicameral brain research, which started the whole split brain theory left and right brain wants brain imaging got more sophisticated in the 90s, his theories were disproved. He never, by the way, thought that it related to personality, like creativity or not creativity, that became sort of a pop culture add on. And of course, even today, 30 years after that's been disproven, you can search left brain, right brain and you can take tests to see what you are, and so on. And none of that is really true. It's kind of a nice party game, but it's not scientific. So I think that people disqualify themselves in all aspects of business, including creativity. And so one of the things that I suggest is, you're going to get enough No, in your life. You're going to hear no more often than you hear yes. So don't disqualify yourself, by labeling yourself in some way. And I think that that's what's really important. So the label of whether you're creative or not creative, I don't think that's helpful. I think what's most helpful is to not say no to yourself. And if you're interested in something go after it.
Lauren
It's something that we've noticed a lot within the field of branding. And also just from interactions with people and listeners who are identify as creatives themselves is that they'll often compromise their moneymaking potential for the sake of being excited about being hired to do something creative, but they don't price themselves properly. So I know that you have a lot, it seems like a lot of insight on how to make money as a creative and I would just love to know your high level thoughts on how people should price themselves? How should they should know when they're pricing themselves too low. And just any other guidance that you have on that topic.
Jeffrey
Price is really psychological on one hand, because you know, when you're trying to figure out, what can you charge for something. Initially, the only person who is afraid of the higher ticket price is you because the other person doesn't even know what it is yet. So the first person you have to sell is yourself and be confident in what it is you're presenting. If you're not confident in what you're presenting, why should the potential consumer be seduced by your proposition. So you have to believe in your worth, and truly believe in your worth. So when you're putting something forward, it comes across with some confidence. And in terms of pricing it's tough, because sometimes people just don't have the budget. They might even like to pay you more, but they don't have the budget. So there's realities in the business. But nobody, or at least I haven't met that person yet is going to say, you know, your price is really good. But I really think that you should charge me more of what you're going. I haven't gotten that in all these years. So I think that that pricing is a mixture of what the market will bear, how you actually value yourself, and that you have to be within the realm of reality. In terms of you know, if you're selling a product, you better be able to justify why yours is so much more than somebody else's.
But you know, those PT Barnums said there's a sucker born every minute. So they're, it's astounding that there are people out there that will pay for things that may pay too much. But when you're trying to place a value on yourself, it becomes as much a psychological exercise as it is a business exercise.
phil
I love that.
lauren
I remember, when I first started working with Phil, I was coming from the kind of big agency world so I was used to the prices that we would be putting together for pitches for companies that were worth, like sometimes a billion dollars or evaluated even more. And then I was freelancing with Phil on evenings, mornings and weekends and finally made the leap to join him full time. And Jeff just so you know, Phil, and I have been best friends for 16 years, we met on the second day of university. And so I joined him and Phil, like at the time was like, how am I going to pay you? And I said, well, first of all, we need to increase prices, because the value of what you're providing for work is so much bigger than what you're currently providing. And Phil, I don't know if you remember this, but when I put together the first proposal where we were working together like full time it was for something like $10,000 And you were like, I can't be involved with this. This is sickening. This is too high. I can't look at this. So funny.
Phil
It's something I continue to struggle with. The truth is I'm actually embarrassed to admit this because we've got clients who are listeners, but there's a good chance clients, if you're listening that when we pitched you the moment in the brand audit retap that we pitch you on a project I had the Zoom call muted. I still do it. I try not to I've gotten down to like the setting before mute. But I really struggle with money in that respect. I mean, I know we need to earn it. I know what we need to earn to run a business but still it's it's a funny thing, I think because my name is so embedded in the brand that I when it comes to money I think about it personally, even though I know it's not that has not gone away. What you're describing has still not gone away. For me. I will like Lauren goes so that total estimate for this it was murdered when I tried it. And that I'm unit backup when it's done. And a lot of times a client says yes, like why can I just get over this but yes, no, I remember trying to be I remember it.
Jeffrey
And that's what I mean by pricing being psychological within reason. But again, the first person you have to convince that you're worth it, is you
Lauren
Yeah, yeah. Do you have any advice for someone on how to know when to increase prices?
Jeffrey
Well, sure. There's the basic economic theory which is scarcity. So if you are an individual, or even if you have a business, the scarcity you're often dealing with this time. So as scarcity, if you are in high demand, and your time, or the products that you make take time to make, so there's a scarcity in that, you can charge more if they're highly desired. And I would do this exercise with my students. And I would hold up a bottle of water, say, so how much is this worth, and trying to get it for $1 at the corner grocery dollar $1.50 At the most said, Okay, let's change the context. You're now in the desert, there's no other water around, and you want that bottle of water that I have. And I know that if you don't get that water, and I'm a ruthless businessman, you don't get that water, you're gonna die. They give me 500. For it, you give me 1000 for it, and you give me 10,000 for it? Well, the scarcity there presents a very high risk. And so you have to look at the context of the situation also, when you're doing pricing, because that context can change things. You know, that BlackBerry that you might have in an old in your dresser drawer that you haven't used for 12 years at its time was worth quite a bit. Now. It's just a piece of junk. So value also changes, too. But I think what a lot of people don't do is look at context. And I think context is really important in determining that.
Lauren
And so for you, I mean, you started off as a fashion designer. And now you work in various forms of the arts, including theater and things like that. And what are some like business lessons that you've personally learned and your various ventures in these different assets have or different parts of creativity?
Jeffrey
Well, I think, first of all, the overall lesson that I learned is that businesses have much more in common than they do different. You know, when you're dealing with people, the fundamentals of business, I believe, come down to relationships, and relationships are absolutely crucial, and establishing trust with your clients. So that doesn't make any difference what business you're in, those things really hold true.
And it struck me when I went from fashion design to filmmaking, how similar they were. And what I mean by that is, it starts with an idea, I'd have to sketch out the idea of being a fashion design, or if we're doing film having a storyboard, you know, you go through what are the different costs for materials for labor? How long is it going to take? How much can we charge for this? Can we manufacture it in enough time to meet the deadline that the client needs, and then you also have to collect the money, also.
So if you look at businesses as very siloed, which I think most people do, it's very limiting in terms of the opportunities you can create. If you look at businesses as having more in common than they do different, you can actually create tremendous synergy with other kinds of businesses that can create limitless opportunities. So I think that that's probably the most important thing that I learned. And the other really important part of that is listening. No matter what business you're in, no matter who you're dealing with, whether it's in personal relationships, or business relationships, or if I'm working with actors, you know, in the in the play that I'm doing, it's listening, because everybody wants to feel heard. And the best way to do that is to actually be an active listener. And what I mean by active listeners, you ask questions, you make sure that you mirror the response to the person so that they know that you're actually hearing them, doesn't mean you have to agree. But what it means is that they feel respected. And they feel included in the process, as opposed to just a gear and a machine or a functionary. And I think that's really important. No matter what kind of business you're in, or even in personal relationships,
Phil
I think it's refreshing advice. I also, I'm really interested in how you've connected the dots from the different industries that you've worked very different industries, but creativity or arts is really that connecting dot. But the way that you describe your experience that it's almost like each of them are building blocks, and they build on each other. So it's not one ad and all of a sudden, everything's different. The way that you describe this. It's almost like each career in what some might consider to be a different industry is actually not that different. And each one is built on itself. I think that's really refreshing because I don't know what the actual stat is, but in someone's lifetime nowadays, realistically, they will change their career more than once right in their lifetime. It's really cool.
jeffrey
You're absolutely right in what you just said. I mean, that was a great summation should now we all form our own narratives through the rearview mirror. And when you connect the dots, it's looking back. And we all have a compelling need to make sense of what it is we're doing or how we got there. It's a lot more random than that, in reality, but human beings cognitively seek order. They want to have a certain understanding of you know, how they got there. And then all of a sudden it was meant to be all made sense. Wow, not really a sign. I really pissed off my neighbor when I was a kid, Billy Lautham. His parents got him a telescope and our backyards. were next to each other. And he said, Look at the telescope. Do you see Orion? Now? What do you see? I see a bunch of stars. So no, no look at the Orion like, and he looks back and he says, look on the upper right, you see the star that's his right shoulder. And then sorry, that's his left. There's there's three. That's his sword, which you see Orion. So now I see a bunch of stars. And the more I didn’t see Orion, the more pissed off. He gotten frustrated with me. By the way, he wouldn't let me look in his telescope anymore. So sad story.
But anyhow, I said, Billy, it's just a bunch of stars. But we organize that into Orion, or Cassiopeia’s chair or the Big Dipper. It's not that intrinsically, we've imposed that meaning on top of it. And that's what we do in life. Because it seems I don't know, I'm comfortable with it. But it seems that people are very discomforted by things being more random and not necessarily making sense.
And for whatever reason, I'm not uncomfortable with that, because most things just don't make sense. And there's a great philosopher who I can't remember his name, but his phrase was “shit happens”. And that's what's happened throughout my life, I didn't have any master plan. I am, however, seduced by ideas. I want to spend my time doing things that mean something to me. And, of course, I have to make money. I have a family, I have to eat, and pay for housing and everything else. But there's a big cost to me emotionally in not doing what I want to do. So I want to do what I want to do. And so I'm going to try to be clever enough to figure out a way to make a living at it. But I didn't know I was going to start a clothing company, until a dear friend of mine called me up. He had graduated from college a year before I did. And he said, Listen, I've saved up some money. Can you think of a gig that would earn more than bank interest. And I was working in this clothing boutique in Madison, Wisconsin, where I went to college. And I had a double major in philosophy and psychology, because I wanted to make sure that I had two majors that would guarantee that I couldn't be employed anyplace. And so I succeeded in that very early. Oh, you're a philosopher. Well, we'll have some sheep, and you can lead them out to pasture. So I guess because I was working in the store. And if my friend said, can you think of anything? Well, I see what sells, I could always draw all design clothes. He said okay. And he sent me a check for more money than I ever had at one time. And that was $2,500. And, you know, it seemed like a lot. That's why, but it wasn't. But that started me down the path in terms of careers and so on. And the idea seemed interesting to me.
As I've gone through my life, even the most recent thing that I'm doing, which is this play, which I'm very proud of. I had no idea I was going to meet the person to play is about his name is Lloyd Price. He's in a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And he knocked down the wall that was called Race records. Lloyd is black. And prior to his first song Latinas, Claudie, if you wanted to buy a record by a black artist, you had to go to a black owned record store, it was called Race music. Blacks couldn't get their records on to jukeboxes in white restaurants, where they had jukeboxes or advanced places. Lloyd sold over a million records, which was unheard of at the time. And nobody is prejudiced against green so because he was making money. That's wasn't a racial thing. It was a financial thing. That's why that wall called Race music came crashing down and it changed the music industry.
Anyway, I didn't know I was going to meet Lloyd. I had no idea. It was a call from someone I had done work with and said I want you to meet this guy. And it changed the whole trajectory of my life. I wasn't looking for a change. I had no idea that that was going to happen. But it did. And that's what I mean by I'm seduced by ideas. His story was so absolutely fascinating on so many levels that are important to me, which is social justice, human rights, race relations, music, popular culture, all of those things that I find fascinating to be able to bring that all together with my love of music, and storytelling is a dream, a very difficult dream to achieve. But nonetheless, it's something that I was willing to put my efforts into and make happen. And now we're opening in Chicago. Amazing. I confuse myself, by the way, during that story, I hope it made some sense, do you know it was.
Lauren
Fantastic, cuz you're giving me a lot to think about. And in the sense that, you know, I consider myself to be very, very fortunate that I found a career that I genuinely love. But most importantly, I get to do what I think is best creatively on my terms. Of course, Phil has a bit of a say, but at the end of the day, he fully trusts me to sell clients on services that I think really, really would benefit them, I get to package them up in a way that I think is going to genuinely help them build a life of their dreams. And there's just something incredibly valuable, it's actually invaluable to be able to have that level of freedom. And I think that, you know, one thing that I hope our listeners take away from this really, really inspiring episode with you is that believing in yourself and taking the leap to pursue your creative ideas, or really do things on your terms, is kind of worth more than any paycheck from a job that you don't love and don't believe in.
Jeffrey
Yeah, I think that a really important question to ask oneself, is what is success for you? What does that mean? What is it and that doesn't mean, by the way that your definition is in, in cement, you can change your definition is life changes, you know, was a different thing for me before I got married before I had kids, because you know, then I had responsibilities that I didn't have previously. And the risks that I took, affected more than just me, and, of course, my employees and everything. So circumstances, getting again, back to context, context changes, and it changes one's perception of things.
But I think asking what success really means I mean, doing a really deep dive into what does success mean to you, because then at least you can start to establish your own kind of inner compass, to pursue what you think success is and what you want. And for me, my definition of success in terms of business, was the ability to say no, without catastrophic financial circumstances. If I didn't have to do everything, if I didn't want to work with people that I didn't have to work with them. And the ability to say no, is a tremendous freedom. And I think that freedom of time, and freedom of choice is often very much overlooked as people are just striving for acquisition as opposed to fulfillment, and I'm after fulfillment, that's what I want. Given that I can make enough money to live comfortably. But fulfillment is huge. And I'll tell you, the time goes so fast. And a lot of times people will hit their hit middle age, and they have the golden handcuffs because they're feeling you know, they're making very good money, but they're totally unfulfilled in terms of what they're doing, and afraid to take a risk to do something else.
And I think you will never do anything interesting if you don't take risks. And I'm going to talking about stupid risks. I mean, I'm not going to jump off Half Dome in darkness for the thrill of not crashing into a tree or a rock. But in terms of pursuing things that are important to me, I'll try to assess risk to a certain point. But you have to, I think, have the courage to take a leap because courage means you take the leap without knowing the outcome. Confidence is that you can repeat a task enough that you are reasonably sure of what that outcome is.
Phil
It's so great. Something we've been talking about more recently is how we love the discomfort of I think entrepreneurship. We know we've for several months, we've been very busy with client projects, and as a result haven't made as much progress on our own initiatives and projects and risks. I would say riskier verticals of our business, and I'm listening to you share the stories in this wisdom and I think your reminder of risks resonates with me right now. Because even if I look at our, you know, our projects planned out for the rest of the year, we wrap up a handful of projects this month, we have fewer projects next month, part of me goes, oh my god, we need to find clients to client projects to fill out our calendar. But then another part of me that's a little more exciting, is the riskier part that says, great, this is our time now to start to take those risks. So if anything, you're kind of validating that riskier, I guess,
Lauren
Yeah, like use that time to try to learn something new, right where we're at.
Jeffrey
Yeah, well, how do you define risk?
Phil
Yes, everyone's gonna define it differently. For me, it would be the going the path that has less guarantee or less certainty. But I guess trusting in our intuition was gonna say my intuition, but we operate pretty much in tandem our intuition to know that if we put all the effort we can into something that it's gonna pay off.
Jefferey
What about you, Lauren?
Lauren
I think that maybe risk is making a choice where there are less guarantees of success is probably how I would define it. But I think also with riskier choices, it's putting more onus on your belief in yourself, then perhaps the safer decision?
Jeffrey
Yeah, mean, I think risk is the honest, the degree of risk has to do with the degree of uncertainty of the outcome. No matter what that is, whether you're doing some kind of a daredevil stunt, or whether you're launching a new product, or you know, whatever it is, I think it's that uncertainty. And I think that within reason, of course, there's a real value in risk. You know, people said to me, why did you since your backgrounds in filmmaking, why did decide to do play instead of the film? And I thought about it, and I thought about the way that I feel when I see a great piece of live theater, or if I go to a live concert, that's even true in a sporting event. And what I began to realize, is in a live performance, the talent is at risk all of the time. So if you're doing film, you can do another take, you can stop and start again. Well, you can't do that at a play, you're at risk the whole time. And I believe that that risk, in some way informs the audience experience. And that the more profound that is, the more it impacts the audience, assuming you have a good story, and having that good story. And you know, how risk informs performance, I think is really, really interesting. And so to me, the true risk is not taking the risk, to do the things I really want to do. Because that's then missing out on an opportunity for fulfillment, missing out on that kind of satisfaction you can get when you've demonstrated to yourself that you can actually do what you want it to do. And I think that that's really important. So there's a big risk that people don't assess is what's the risk of not doing.
Phil
Yeah, insightful. You've given us so much wisdom. I have one more question for you, before we tell our listeners how they can get more of you, including your book. How do you define brand in 2023? For us, typically brands in the context of people or personal brands, but I'm really curious for your take on this. Now, how do you define what it means to have a brand nowadays?
Jeffrey
Well, a brand is a story well told. And what's essential in order to be a brand is that there is an emotional connection that the consumer has to that service or product. So for instance, Apple, you know, when that doesn't happen anymore, so much. But during that era, which we all know where people would line up around the block to get the newest iPhone, Apple created a brand. And they were incredibly smart. Probably the smartest that Steve Jobs was, was as a brand steward, and a marketer. He was brilliant. Apple never originated a product, they always iterated on somebody else's product. There's not one thing they ever did, that was a first, but what they did do is design it in a more appealing way, and advertise and market it in a more seductive way. So nobody's really excited if they're going to buy a Dell computer. Even though arguably, you can get more bang for the buck from your Dell than you can from an apple. But Apple created this whole ecosystem and this whole belief system around their brand, the ecosystem meaning that it all works together. And so what they were able to do is create a brand and when you create a brand you also then have like a tribe, you know that follows your brand. You have your insignia so that you know you've got your apple when you open up your laptop, people can see what the logo is on it.
And so I think that it adherence to a brand has to do with the success of a brand has to do with telling a story well, reinforcing that message consistently all the time. And the real template for a brand is religion. So if I do that, which is a swoosh, and I've done this in front of 3000 people and say, what brand is this? And I do the swoosh, everybody says at the same time, Nike, right? Not unlike the crucifix, right? Everybody knows what it stands for. Okay. There is a story behind that, that also defines the symbol defines the company.
There are loyal followers who become evangelists, which is a religious term for the brand, like people who buy into Apple, and so on. And so there is an adherence, and no matter what you get, whether it's an Apple computer, or you buy a McDonald's, hamburger, wherever you get it, it's going to be the same thing. So there's a consistency that's essential with a brand and all these different tenants are truly templated in religion. And it's really quite fascinating to see that there is a symbol, there is a story, there is an adherence to a certain belief system, all of these kinds of things.
When you get into a personal brand, it's something else. And that's something else I in some of the branded panels that I've been on, I think that the notion of a personal brand, is really simple. It's your reputation. And what do people say about you when you leave the room. And that's what a personal brand is. And anything that you construct to be a personal brand, is artifice. And the truth about the personal brand is when you leave the meeting, and the people who are there around the table, say, what an asshole, the CEO of your personal brand, just hit the rocks. And so I think that, that a brand, to me, is an essential part of the business. Because if without a brand, and apple is another good example of this without a brand, you're a commodity. If you have a brand, you are somehow then distinct and different from your competition. But you have to constantly reinforce that
Phil
Great definition.
Lauren
I love that perspective, because a lot of the clients that we work with, while they're all wonderful, amazing, brilliant people, I find that the ones who are a bit more risk averse, and branding, want to create a brand. That's exactly like everyone else that's in the market, because that has worked historically. So a lot of times, I find that our role as brand strategist in their project is to help get them out of their comfort zone and help them understand that actually being completely different, isn't a bad thing. It can actually make you more memorable, instead of being second best at what someone else has tried to do, you can be the very best in your own way of existing as a brand.
JefFrey
It is the concept of comfort zone, you know, is kind of an interesting concept. What is your comfort zone, everything is familiar, that you know what you think the outcome is, and you're reasonably sure about what that outcome will be. That sounds really boring. There's nothing very interesting about that. And if you, again, are afraid to take those risks, you're never going to do anything interesting. If you are afraid of failure, first of all, you have to define what failure means. That's really important. But if you're afraid of failing, that means you are risk adverse. And if you are risk adverse to the point that you will do anything where you're not reasonably certain of what the outcome is, you are boring, you can make a commodity. But then if you make a commodity, be it a service or a product, then you're in Back to the realm where we started about price competition. Because why should somebody pay you more, you're essentially the same thing. So why should anybody pay you more for what you're offering?
Lauren
That is a good point! Thank you. You got more fuel for when this comes up.
Phil
You've given us so much wisdom. Thank you for that. I want to tell people about your book, Creative Careers, making a living with your ideas. I know it's been rated hugely, positively and it's been successful on Amazon, tell us where else our listeners can get more of your juicy goodness and wisdom. You've given us lots today.
Jeffrey
Well, a good place to go is LinkedIn, because I post quotes from the really terrific guests that I have in my class. So talking about wisdom, there's great things that come through, I realized how I'd have gotten old enough that what I say is perceived as wisdom. That's what weird. So LinkedIn, I post video clips from my guests in class that hopefully people will talk about. But that's really good stuff. I have fantastic guests in the class, many of whom are in that, that book, they can find they can go to my website, madoffproductions.com. They can also go to personalitymusical.com. And anybody who's anywhere near the Chicago area, we opened on June 2, and I'm extremely proud of the play. And there's another life lesson there by the way, when we did our first commercial one in Pennsylvania, I was taught in the theater. And some people came up to me and said, the nervous, no, you're not nervous, have you going crazy. Well, I trust the material, I trust the talent, I have confidence that we're going to do this well. And and I looked at my watch, and it's 15 minutes before curtain. So there's nothing I can do about anything anyhow. You can put out your best stuff, the only thing that you have control over is what you do.
So we're going to put the best possible piece of entertainment out there on stage, I can't control how the audience is going to respond, I can't control how the critics are going to respond. I hope they respond greatly. That's been the case, so far. This is now a much bigger platform. Being in Chicago, it's the second biggest theatre city in the country, next to New York. So you also have to realize what you have agency over and, and can control and what you can't. And there's more that you can't control than you can control. Once you've done your best efforts, and the people you're working with just put forth their best efforts. You do everything you can to try to assure its success. But that's when you're into the realm of risk again, because you just never know. And to wrap up, I would say that, you know, if you were going to be a lawyer, or an accountant, or a dentist, nobody would ever say to you, what's your backup position. But if you want to be an actor or a dancer or a musician or writer, the first question you should ask is, well, what what's your fallback position. And I would say that your fallback position ought to be your own resourcefulness, your own cleverness. And even though it's gets quite scary, your confidence that you will find a good solution, as long as you don't shackle yourself with doubt. And as a result, paralyze yourself. You got to keep moving.
Lauren
Incredible. Thank you so much. This has been amazing,
Phil
Great advice, and break a leg with your show, break a leg. And thank you so much for your time for hanging out with us.
Jeffrey
Well, thank you. It was great being on I enjoyed you guys. Thank you thank you so much, Jeffrey. That was such an awesome episode like a little mini lesson that we all appreciate it. Listener. If you would like to leave us some feedback on the iTunes or Apple podcasts that is so helpful for us five star five star that helps others discover this podcast which we work very hard to create for you. And until next time, thanks for listening to Brand Therapy. We'll see you next week.
