207. How do you develop a brand aesthetic? (f. Toren Reaves)
Curious how to develop a unique aesthetic for your brand on social media? 💻Our guest and friend Toren Reaves has some inspiring words that will leave you thinking about creativity in a whole new way. You will learn how to show up online with confidence, even if you aren't creative. Get ready to feel re-energized for your own content creation.
Episode transcription
Phil
How do you develop a unique aesthetic for your brand on social media?
lauren
How can you feel confident showing up online even if you aren't creative?
Phil
Our guest and my wonderful friend Toren Reaves has some inspiring words for you today that will have you thinking about creativity in a whole new way.
Lauren
Get ready to feel re-energized for your own content creation. Let's get to it.
phil
Listener I don't like to pick favorites, I tried to avoid it. We've had on the podcast some of my very favorite friends in the industry. I'm not picking favorites. Today, I have a very short list of favorites, and Torun. Our guests today is one of them. We've had actually in the last few months, a handful of my friends that are also there working busy working professionals. But they're also Adobe Express ambassadors, and in this incredible, I don't even know what to call it, it's so much more than, you know, the capacity in which I work with a lot of other brands. Adobe always takes it to the next level. And we've really, we have this community of creators all over the world. Taurah is one of those creators. He's one of those creative people I know he has the coolest aesthetic. And we're going to talk today about his process for content production, a topic we've never tackled specifically on this podcast of roughly 200 episodes. So torn, welcome to brand therapy, we are so happy you're here.
Toren
Thank you so much. I'm super happy to be here, I can't believe that I was allowed to book an episode or to be asked ah, which is pretty flattering to say the least. And the aesthetic praise and the production praise, I can't tell you how much that means. I think as creators, one of like the melancholy troops is that the person creating spends more time with the content than almost anybody else in the audience. And so for someone who has spent any time on something I've made enough to form an opinion about it, good or bad is something that I find, like, that's the goal for me now is just like, can I make something that somebody wants to spend time with, considering, you know, it's very flattering, that you've done that, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
We met at Adobe MAX in person for the first time and I saw you in action. At Adobe MAX, you were interviewing and Lunas who I think is no longer the CMO at Adobe. But she was and that's one of the top jobs and you did such a beautiful job of interviewing her and chatting with her. And you also do such a masterful job of showing up online in a way that's authentic. And specifically, I'm interested in exploring today, how people that aren't quite as creative can feel confident in showing up online in a style that's unique in a style that's inspiring for them and for their audience. And so we're going to get into some specifics on that. If you're okay with that.
Toren
No, I would love to Yeah, that's right up my alley. It's just anything I can do to help people especially if you're just getting started feel empowered to not only create, but to share what they're creating. If I can have that effect on one person throughout the entirety of my career, I'll consider a job well done. How did you find your style, I always wanted the job creating and I just couldn't trick anybody into hiring me. And so when I started working at agencies, I was doing like keyword search or managing paid campaigns across a variety of different platforms. And then when COVID hit, I was like, Okay, I've got this opportunity now to do what I've always wanted, because I always felt like there was a distinct lack of something in the work that I saw these agencies doing, as I'm sure the two of you know is that, you know, advertising isn't as a industry is pretty homogenous. So there was like a distinctly or uniquely, you know, black voice throughout the creative that I saw firsthand that was lacking. And always just wanted to share my vision from that perspective. So when I started on my own, I kind of knew what I hadn't seen and just kind of started operating well, how can I fill the space with stuff that I find interesting, and bring my own tastes and a eclectic interest into this, and really just spend a lot of time with every post, just getting it to a place that was evocative of whatever emotion that I wanted to convey. I think like they say like movie directors, they all tell the same story, just with different scripts. I think for me, I've just always tried to express one feeling throughout all of my work with like, regardless as to what the medium is, and just really spending as much time as I can with the assets that I have, regardless of what they are trying to convey that emotion. And so that was like the guiding principle was like, How can I speak from this vantage point in a way that's authentic to express this emotion that I've been feeling my whole life. So if I'm checking those two boxes, and whatever comes out of that, that's fine with me. So that's more or less kind of how I developed I just kind of had this barometer for the direction I wanted the work to go and just followed it.
Phil
I love the net Should I have a motion? I have never thought about that. Even though I think I've done it. I've never consciously thought about it. For me, it might be more like humor based or brand voice based. I know that in, in a moment of like, turmoil or with something like terrible happens. I'm always the first tried, like, find the happiness, the sunshine in the moment. And sometimes it's like a joke where I try to like, laugh it off. That's just how I react. But I think what I look at the content that I've posted over the years that has performed the best was think about this literally this morning, anytime I make a joke and Instagram stories, or I make fun of myself, or I bring some sunshine to the moment. It's true to how I operate in real life. And it always performs the best for me always.
Yeah, so when you define performing the best. So I feel like all of us come to that term with a different understanding. And I want to know like what is still considered like a high performing content piece.
phil
I woke up this morning, because of the time difference to a full inbox of people replying to the story that I created in a very short amount of time, which was me at the grocery store, I took a picture of the wine that was on sale for 99 euros and sad I really belong in a country where the wine is cheaper than water. Wait 99 euros, point nine, nine euros. Thank you for catching me on that, Lauren. That would have made no sense. Wow, that's no, basically one euro. Yeah, for a box of wine. And so torn. So my measure of success was the fact that I had not I didn't look at number of likes, shares and saves. I looked at the diversity of authentic engagement. In my inbox. I had people saying I had a mother of a friend say I was about to give you a speech from Mexico for buying that wine. I had another person say Jess who works with us, Jess was like, I would have bought that I had a whole bunch of like, just total opposite ends of the spectrum. And it sparked conversation in a way that felt people felt like they were on the journey with me or they were they're standing in the grocery store with me, that was my measure of success. Yeah,
toren
That's amazing to me that that says that you have curated or aggregated an audience of people who just get it, who get you and can reply to something that you post authentically, like you said, it's so hard to state how difficult that is, for people who haven't reached that Echelon yet or who are just getting started. I have not reached that Echelon yet. So I'm it's mostly speculative. But as somebody who aspires to get to that tier professionally, that is a high mark of success. So kudos to you for having enough people in your audience who kind of can take posts like that which is so focused and spur the moment like think about all the boardrooms you've been in, where their teams of people trying to like calculate how to make content that's performative in that way, and you just strolling through a grocery store, you've got such a strong audience that you can just take a random picture, and then post it through your voice. And then people respond to that so strongly, that they actually feel compelled to DM you and share experiences. And now you guys have this really beautiful relationship where you get to know them a little bit more, because they want to share that side of themselves. Some, that's the dream.
phil
I mean, I try not to overthink it in the moment. But it's funny, you saying this out loud. I'm the first to go damn, my Instagram hasn't grown in a while it grows slowly in it. It's always growing, but very slowly. And I've had conversations with fellow ambassador and my friend Lucas O'Keefe, who has followers into the hundreds of 1000s. And I've said, Lucas, I wish I could just have your audience for a week, I would monetize that I'd make I'd be a millionaire. And joking. But like with a reach that big. I mean, it would change the game for me. And he always says to me, Phil, I would kill to have your audience which is obviously much smaller, but higher quality Lucas has. He said, You know, he's got people all over the world. But a lot of times those people aren't purchasing his digital products, but they're soaking up all of his resources for free, which can be a challenge if you're trying to make it into a business. So I guess the grass is always greener. And it's nice to hear out loud, from another perspective, what people enjoy or what you're doing well, because social media can be very discouraging. I think in the best of times when you agree, Lauren?
Lauren
Definitely. Yeah, it can often feel like you're kind of shouting into a void. Yeah. And just going through the motions, but not necessarily feeling the benefits of it.
toren
Yeah, I've found that that depends on what I'm hoping to get out of it. Like if I'm looking to have a bunch of people telling me how great I am or you know that I'm handsome or something like that, that I'm going to walk away from social media being pretty upset, but if I just go, Okay, I'm gonna post this and if a few of the people who I follow like if Phil likes this post, which is like esoteric and weird and moody, then I know that whatever I have created is to get that seal of approval from another creative like that nod like, even if it isn't fulfill, he recognizes the work that went into it. That to me if I go walk away feeling like, like, that's awesome. Like that, to me is great. So for me, it's all like, he uses and gratifications like how am I looking to be gratified from this platform. And I feel like when I was at my least happy there was when I was trying to get like the high calorie, but like low nutrition, praise of people just taking that I was handsome. And, you know, 2006 was a rough year for touring the reef. So that didn't happen too often. And I've since matured, but yeah, I think with Lucas, his audience is it's like intimidatingly big, I don't know if I would ever want to be the face of a brand that large, but he navigates it so well. And if you meet a person, and he's such a sweetie, like, it doesn't, doesn't feel burdened by it at all. And that's really impressive to watch him cook and just kind of interact with people out in the real world. He's like, such a sweet,
LaUREN
Very much. Was there a moment when you were creating content earlier on where you realize, like, Hey, I'm on to something, was there one post that was an indicator, you were on the right path?
toren
Yeah, so I got asked by a client to design the t shirt. And I did, and then not only to sell out right away, but one of their competitors, literally, like copy, pasted it, and then sold out for them. And it's like gone out to be a successful shirt for them. And for me, because I don't have a background in like graphic design, or any of the stuff I do now I'm all self taught to see a brand where I knew that they had professional designers look at what I was doing, and literally just replicated one for one. I was like, Alright, I'm on something like I must be doing some work for that. This team of people to look at what I'm doing and literally just kind of unabashedly copy it. And so I think we're some people might be upset about that. Like, for me, it was very validating. And I find validation in the creative work wherever I can take it just because, again, being self taught in an industry that's so much not me, you have to become very efficient at finding those sources that say you have a valid perspective. So I've become very, very sensitive to looking for the bright side and things like that, so that I can walk away feeling like okay, like what I'm doing works. It's a weird way to think of it but to me, like in the moment, I remember being so happy.
lauren
I remember it because I post on Tik Tok. And I remember one time, this girl ripped off my viral posts, and ripped it off, word for word, recreated the exact same style use the same music and changed like one word and the copy. And I was really pissed off because her video ended up doing better than mine. But then I thought to myself, because I've gotten over a million views on it. And she got 1.6 million and I was so mad. But then I remembered I was like, Well, isn't that the whole point of creating content in the first place is to be putting an idea out there that others could steal like an artist, like isn't that a sign that you're actually on? onto something? So I don't know, I've been there. But I feel like I was probably a bit more mad than you were when your T shirt was ripped off.
toren
I think a couple of factors that kept me from being upset besides finding validation in it was, to me, it's like, I've got nothing but ideas. That's like not a finite resource. Like I can't turn that part of my brain off. So I'm not worried about never having another idea. Again, that's that's going to resonate with people. And then another one is like, well, what is this person lacking, where they have to do this almost, it's like, I'm more worried about what this person's going to hit like wall wise, moving forward, if like already, they're copying, it's like, it's such a admission of not being very creative. If you're like once for one copy, not that that's like a bad thing to do work that's referential. I think that paying homage or building in references to other works or citing other works that you find inspirational is great. Like, that's an awesome place to be, but to one for one copy, like you were that creator probably is lacking you a lot of ways. And I think that hard work always bubbles to the top. Eventually, that first will be exposed for not copying you but copying somebody else. And when they go back and go, okay, this person who blew up on other people's work, who were the other people that they were citing now, it's like, oh, Lauren is the genius who got all this started. And now like you can go okay, it was me all along. So I guess I never worry about stuff like that, because eventually that stuff takes care of itself.
lauren
And I love that you said that ideas aren't a finite resource because I don't know if this is the case for the people that you work with or with your own content. But for our clients, I feel like they put so much pressure on themselves with every single post because that's their one idea that they want to bring to life and pour their whole heart and soul into it. But social media is really fleeting. And by putting that kind of pressure on yourself and thinking that like, I need this, this idea has to be perfect and execution, you're kind of setting yourself up for disappointment. And it's, I feel like your perspective is so refreshing to think that you're always gonna have new ideas, and it kind of takes the pressure off a bit.
toren
Yeah, no, Thanks, I appreciate that. If you're constantly thinking of different things to do, you don't have to feel that pressure that you mentioned, for any of it to be perfect, so to speak, like, I'm extremely particular. But there have been so many times where I was working on a video where I was editing a photo or an editorial, where I poured like, 20 hours into like, just where the picture would be cropped. And then I go, okay, like, I just can't get this to a place where it's working. And then the next day, I start a completely different project, and and then just kind of falls into place. So you can invest all that time to getting some place to where you feel like it's perfect. It never quite like gets there, you'd end up like not loving it. And then the next thing you do just works works. And then it's like, alright, well then. Cool. Sometimes you have to take the easy W Yeah,
phil
Well, let's continue talking about that advice for someone who, as you identified has lots of ideas that maybe trouble with execution, what is your advice for that content creator that has all the ideas and as I'm written down in a Google Doc, or written them down in their notes on their iPhone, but struggles to sustain their content strategy or post consistently? Yeah,
toren
I would wonder why if they had so many ideas, why they were struggling to post them? Is it a confidence issue where you feel like you won't be received, the way that you want to be received? You know, is it just I've got these ideas, but I don't want to go out in the field with like a camera produced them, or the ideas don't align with my current production budget, you know, do I have this idea that would take 22 people and six cameras and like, you know, the best sound equipment in the world. And I would say, those ideas that you're having shelve those, or try to bring them down to scale, if you're nervous about not being received, the way that you intend, and you've got all this stuff that you just haven't posted yet, just go ahead and post that shit. Like, if you loved it before you post it like that, to me is still like my number one, like, Okay, if I can check this box have worked, or it's received is almost arbitrary. Like if I love it before it goes live, cool than anything else after that, it's like icing on the cake. And that takes away a lot of the pressure and the fear. It's like, there are posts now of mine that I don't think metric wise have performed well, like at all, like no one gives a fuck, but I love that picture. So much. I love that video so much, just sharing it in the hopes that somebody stumbles upon it at any point and goes, Oh, okay, this speaks to me in some way. That to me, it's like, okay, cool. Like, now you kind of get it, we're good. And I love this, I just want to get this out there. And that can be scary. For some people like having that kind of confidence ago, I know that what I'm doing is kind of esoteric or a little bit out there. Or experimental even for me, I don't want to share it, if I don't think it's gonna get 10 million views or 100,000 likes, don't operate, chasing the reception, just create stuff that you love, authentically and deeply. And you will find an audience and if you're like me and you're a little bit niche, then your audience is probably going to be as well. And there's nothing wrong with that, that should be what we should be aspiring to. So that would be like my ground level advice to the person who has a lot of ideas, but is having trouble with a production pipeline. I
lauren
Love it. What's your advice for someone who doesn't have ideas?
toren
Consume more, and spend time with the stuff. So anything that has ever spoken to you, whether it's like a song, and I do this exercise, when I work with high schoolers, where I'm introducing them to, you know, creating editorials, or just design in general, I'll sit down with the class on day one, like, Okay, everybody spend an hour, you can have your headphones in, I don't care how you go about it. Just make me like a little PowerPoint presentation on things that speak to you. I don't care if it's a color, I don't care if it's a logo, I don't care if it's a t shirt, a song, an album, a movie, just put in front of me shit that you like. And then we'll sit down. And I'm going to tell you the through line that I can draw through all those things. And then I want you to tell me where I was super wrong. And explain to me where I may have been right? And then tell me why all those things speak to you. And then we're going to take all those reasons in concentrate it down to like two or three buzzwords and go okay, like, what's the mood? What's the color, like whatever we can do to kind of make this as concise as possible. And maybe it's not the best, like the Venn diagram of those three words and all the things you put in front of me they may not be completely overlap, but if it's like 95%, that's good enough for just now. And now okay, how can we replicate that through our own word is At a camera angle is at a location to shoot at is it a graphic design, whatever we can do to take that feeling that spoke to you and incorporate it into whatever discipline of, of content creation that you operate in, that's going to be a great place to start. And I do that exercise today. Now, like when I'm working on photo shoots, I was telling a friend of mine, the most recent little album, I posted on Instagram, I was listening to the same song, I loop in my ear pod for six hours straight. And it's like I'm making album covers to music I haven't made that's kind of like my underlying, like modus operandi. And that to me kind of helps frees me up, it makes everything working in the same direction. Like there's a vibe to the song I was listening to that love so much. It's like, I just want to be in the space all day long. So I've stumbled upon the song that makes me feel this way. Why go searching for more of it, it's right here. Put that bad boy and loop and let's just create whatever comes out of this five. And I probably took 10,000 stills, I think I only posted three. But those were like the three or four that just like, got it like everything clicked. And then neither one of those three, I probably could have only posted one. And Ben justice happy
lauren
How cool I love that system that you take high schoolers throw and clients throw that's like, really, really interesting, too. I would never, I guess my instinct would be to look in the medium that I want to produce in and create and look for inspiration there. But I love how you're going outside of it and looking at colors and movies and things like that. Really awesome. Yeah,
toren
I think sometimes going outside of the medium that you operate in is almost the more efficient approach because if I'm working on photography, and I go through like a Gordon Parks album, and they go man, like I just want my work to say this, will his work already said that in the same medium that I'm also operating in. And no matter what I do with a camera, it'll never be that one for one. So I'm almost setting myself up for like an inherent failure. I'm not only was Gordon Parks like a literal genius. But even if I could replicate the technique, the result won't be the same because that already exist. So why say that same thing. Again, it's almost like I'm gonna write a better play than Shakespeare by all the reading Shakespeare, you might end up trying to compare yourself to work that is already there. So like, if I'm listening to a song, I'm loop all day, it almost becomes very abstract where I'm, I'm clearly not paying attention to the lyrics. And even like the notes like it becomes just kind of one resonant tone. And then that way I feel like okay, now I'm operating in a space, where I've just kind of have this feeling that I can just concentrate on staying in this lane, like I can stay in this feeling for like six hours straight. And then whatever comes out of that with a camera is my best adaptation of that soft like the way that song made me feel. If that makes any sense. I feel like I'm, I'm being kind of like a little woowoo. But in the moment that like it feels like the right process. Instead of like trying to capture Gordon Parks his aesthetic. I'm taking a Daniel Cesar song and trying to adapt it into a photo album.
lauren
I think it makes perfect sense.
Phil
I think so too, you're almost giving us very tangible steps on how to create or how to be an artist. And I think a lot of people, they might not consider themselves creative. And they certainly might not consider themselves an artist and you're kind of peeling back the curtain on that at least a process that has worked well for you, and also processes and systems that you've shared with others, to help them create this productive creative space. I think it's really interesting, just to see behind a curtain on that, oh, I
Lauren
Appreciate it.
phil
You also have a magical way of creating great content from existing materials that are maybe not considered high quality. So let's say working with a screenshot or a photo taken a decade ago on one of the first iPhones or maybe it's a screenshot of a tweet, I don't know you get some ideas here. Can you give us some ideas on how we can create content that looks cool, that feels cool feelings important. That's one takeaway from this, using something that might not be high quality, let's call it that, to take
Toren
A step back in my chronological history, I went to college to become a poet, and that subsequently after graduating became a cage fighter as one does. But one thing I really valued in my time studying poetry was for certain forms, you have to operate within the limitations. Like if you want to write a sestina, you have X amount of syllables, or it's not a sestina anymore. And it's okay to have like free verse poetry. Like I think that that's great, but there is something to be extracted from the discipline of going, I have to work within my means or it's not that thing anymore. And so when I'm working with Khan 10, especially when I was just getting started, and I didn't have a camera, I had a camera phone and an Android one at that. And we've all seen the beams of light to create photography with an Android phone. When I was just getting started, I was very mindful of, okay, the image that I have might be, you know, 480 by four at hand from a computer that I because I'm like a data hoarder like I save screenshots from, I've gotten back dating to like, 2002, I've always had a computer in my room, I always saved images that I thought were just cool. And when I first got started, like the first three posts of mine are images from like my very first like, middle school computer. And so knowing that that was worth my limitations, it's like, okay, how can I plate this in a way that's thought provoking. So maybe, you know, I'm relying a little bit more on the caption doing some work. Or if I'm working with Express, maybe the image that I have is only like a small part of the image I post, I'm using color like background color and text layout and adding stuff to it so that you almost aren't focused on the low resolution itself. Or maybe I'm leading in to the low resolution of the photo to kind of demonstrate how cool this is. And this is like a throwback album of digital posts from 2002. Or I have like a carousel of photos that are higher res and newer of Justin Timberlake in his, his jean jacket suit next to Britney Spears back in 2004. And then I'm also posting behind that a picture of Justin Timberlake at Star Search. And that's the image that I was working with beforehand. So I'm introducing in high res who this is, and then I'm introducing the image that I had, which is lower res, but because you're getting on a carousel, it's almost implicit because they're right next to each other that one too, where it's like, okay, this is big picture. This is what this is small picture, okay? Like, there's congruence see here, because they're physically juxtaposed against one another. So sometimes you have to play within the medium itself. And then also remember, like, almost all of the impressions your work will ever serve is on a small handheld device, and a very resolution. So something like I think a lot of us professional creatives, we have this embarrassment of riches, where I'm operating, I've been very fortunate to be able to operate a giant 65 inch display than another 30 inch display right here. And you can work on a photo album, and go, Oh, my God, this looks so great in this 4k resolution, and then look at it on your phone and go oh, like all the little notes that were screaming beforehand are almost too subtle on a smaller device, and go, Okay, I have to rethink this. So to me, that always kind of reminds me that if I'm working with a low resolution image, it's not the end of the world that I think it is, if I'm looking at on a large display, always before you post, look at it on your phone, and go, even if this is something that I shot with a $4,000 camera, it has to work here, or doesn't really work at all, because so little work is anywhere else. And I think that that can be a liberating principle to operate under where you, you have to realize that most people are going to look at this on a pretty small display. So don't get caught up on not having the richest image yet you will get there. And then even when you do, it's not always the solution. If you can't make it work with an iPhone camera, I can hand you the camera I work with it, it still may not be enough for you to make it work. And then likewise, if you can make it work with an iPhone camera, wait till you graduate. And then you can really rip with something that that has a higher quality image. But it doesn't solve the problem if you're working with super expensive equipment.
phil
Such good advice.
toren
Sorry if that was long winded. Is this all hell? This is like this stuff. Because that's why we're talking about it. Yeah, like you know, Phil and Lauren. But you guys both know how gatekeeping as this industry can be, and how snooty professional creatives can get about the weirdest stuff. And for me, it's like, I understand being proud of going to design school and working with the best equipment on the largest productions possible. But if that's the only thing that we as creatives allowed to be valid, we're putting up this giant barrier to entry for kids who can't afford that, who may have all the same design inclinations as anybody else, if not even better. Like I don't think that in any regard creatively, I'm an outlier. Like, I don't think that there's anything I'm doing that's inherently smarter than what anybody else can do. I just kind of had the nerve to start doing it and working with kids as often as I do. They're so creative, and they're so fluent in this design language of expressing themselves on like a handheld device to limit any of them from coming into our industry just makes me so mad. And so if we're just posturing and saying, Well, the only work that's valid is photos done with you know, 4000 or Sony? Well, you could be a 16 year old black kid working on an Android phone and create stuff that fucking rips, like I've seen it a seat all the time. And so I just want to be one of the voices on the forefront of promoting kids like that, and giving them a platform to not only express themselves already doing that, but validate how they're expressing themselves. Because I find that work to be way more impressive because of the limitations like writing a sestina. The limitations, being able to operate within those is so tricky, it's so hard to stand out at all is so impressive. And some of the work that's resonated with me, the most I know was shot on an Android face by a kid who, you know, doesn't even realize the genius of what they're doing. Why make that kids feel like this industry isn't for him or her just because of how it was produced. It just seems so silly to me, and counter productive to the advancement of what we do. We should want as many people as possible to feel empowered to create and share so that it makes all of us better, you know, the whole rising tides principle, which I you know, I really believe and so I really, I can't thank you guys enough for giving me this opportunity to preach for a little bit. Because I think that there's not enough of this out there this mentality where whoever is creating work that's provocative. That's so difficult, let's just praise it and be upset about what devices are what applications weren't used, and its production
lauren
Completely. I mean, somewhere out there is the next Einstein and I think it's our responsibility to ensure that they have the tools or accessibility to be able to share their genius with others. Yeah,
toren
Or recognize that they've already done so.
phil
I have loved this discussion. The time has gone by way too quickly. How can people get more of you,
toren
I will never forget not plugging myself at Adobe Express. So I've since learned, I'm on Instagram at caseup_design. Also, I'm on Behance at behance.net/torenreaves, I verbose work just fine for me, by all means, hit me up, follow me, I'll probably follow you back. I think if you've had an experience as a professional creative, where you've felt invalidated, you can either like internalize that and let that limit you moving forward, or you can go I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure that nobody feels like that as a result of an interaction with me. And that's been my modus operandi throughout my entire career is just making sure that nobody feels the way I felt trying to operate and navigate the space moving forward. And so I can't thank you both enough for giving me the opportunity to preach that message is so thank you both.
lauren
Thank you. It was wonderful.
phil
You're the best.
Toren my friend you are a superstar. We love that conversation with you listener I hope you also enjoyed this. If you did you know the drill by now come on. You know the drill leave us a review five star five star that helps other people discover it as our guests we work hard to create for you. I also want to give a special shout out to Toren who now works full time for Adobe as a Adobe Express Evangelist. He is the perfect person for that role. And listener we will be back with one more episode before we take a little break for the holiday. That'll be next week. We look forward to seeing you then. Thanks so much for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy. See you next week.
