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Why is it that some people land any job they want and others struggle for an interview? 💼 In celebration of Mother’s Day, we asked Lauren’s mom Sandy, a career consultant, to give us the 411 on all things job hunting. In this episode, you learn the little gestures that make a difference, the ways to stand out in an interview, and tactics for switching industries at any time in your career.

Phil:

Well, hello there. This is Brand Therapy. What did you say?

Lauren:

I said we good because I couldn't hear if you clicked it on. Phil: Are we good? We good? This is Brand Therapy. Welcome. I'm Phil and that's, Lauren yammering away while I'm trying to do an intro.

Lauren:

I'm just trying to do a job here.

Phil:

Okay. You know what? I want to wish our listeners, even if they're not a mother, they should be happy that it's Mother's Day in and around the time they were publishing this episode. So happy Mother's Day to you. If you're a mother, Happy Mother's Day to your mother. Oh boy, our listeners are in for a treat with this episode, should you tell them why do you want to tell them why?

Lauren:

Okay, I'll tell you my mom is the guest.

Phil

Oh my God. Sandy Moore,

Lauren

My mom, Sandy Moore is an expert with career placement. Literally, I've had a resume since about the fourth grade. I'm not even kidding. Over her career, she's helped people who are either in a job transition. So they've been let go and they need help find her finding a new job or reworking resumes and sometimes people hire her outright for advice on interviews and she also gives a lot of talks and workshops to students who are looking for a job. So since so many of our podcast episodes have been around appealing to, you know, people hiring managers and positioning yourself to find a job, Phil came up with the idea of having Sandy on,

Phil:

This is my idea. It was a good idea. I have those sometimes and I'm actually really excited about how this episode turned out. So thank you Sandy for such a good little chat and we're gonna get right into it right now. I feel like anyone can benefit from listening to this episode, even if you're not applying for a job now, it's still good to keep that resume in shape. So let's do it. Here's our chat with Lauren's mom, Sandy Moore.

Phil:

Happy early Mother's Day Sandy.

Lauren:

Happy Mother’s Day mom!

Sandy:

Thank you so much. That's great.

Phil:

When I told Lauren that we were going to call you, she thought I was half crazy, but I have to tell you when I stopped and thought, what expert could we call when it comes to everything from rewriting your resume, getting a job if you don't have experience networking in a productive way. I was like, oh my God, I know exactly who we need to call. We need to call Sandy Moore and that's why you're on the phone with us today.

Lauren:

And to clarify, I didn't think you were half crazy, Phil. My Mom's awesome at what she does.

Phil:

Yeah, the idea of calling her, you know, because it's, this is everyday for you guys. Lauren and I talk about this all the time and Lauren often references you saying, this is what my mom does for a living and here’s what I've learned so. I almost even take that for granted. So I'm super excited to share this conversation with others that are tackling these challenges.

Sandy:

Thank you. That's great. And you know how you just described thinking of me pretty much my bio, you nailed it. It's supposed to be the person of all types of anything to do with HR and career counselling. That's how I advertise myself, so thanks for that.

Phil:

To give people a little understanding, a little peek into your world day to day, what are those types of things that you have to deal with? My mind goes right away to firing people. Is that something you have to do?

Sandy:

Uh Huh. As an HR director, which I did for eight years. Yes, that was part of it. But I also, deal on the other hand is my focus on my career at this moment is picking up the pieces from people who have been fired bad. Having said that, I also do a lot of lecturing at universities for students about to graduate and what they need to think about going out into the real world and how to stand out from everyone else that's applying for jobs as well. And I also continue doing contracts, going into companies, helping them do the whole feasibility report on preparing for growth, succession planning, enticing people to come to their company and focusing mostly on employee retention and recruitment.

Phil:

Wow.

Lauren:

So the whole, the whole shebang.

Sandy:

Yeah, just, you know, as I said, you described me perfectly. It's like name it and I've probably done it. Um it all began when I was a recruiter for a downtown firm and going out there and you know, getting the job orders, placing the people, more of a marketing type role, but that's when I really started feeling it and that's when it began. And then working on the other end of it, helping people who are going through career transition, I did get to see it from that side. And that helped me become what I think was a pretty good HR director because I'd had all that experience before I walked into the role of being the big boss and having to fire and having to promote all of that.

Lauren:

Got It. So mom, a lot of the people who call into the podcast for advice are recent student, like recent college graduates, and they deal with an issue you probably see all the time is how do you get a job if you don't have experience and how do you get experience if you don't have a job? So what's your advice classic? What's your advice?

Sandy:

It is classic. First thing I would say is while in school, one of the things that I always look for is a multitasker, so I would rather hire a B student who it was paying to put themselves through school, you know, having a part time job or had taken on a role in student government or had some sort of a charitable event them that shows that they can handle getting B grades, which are certainly fine, but they can do a lot of different things as opposed to that A plus student that did nothing but focus on their academics. So while those students are fantastic, the concern is if they're only focused on one thing, can we throw other things at them? Can they thrive in chaos? Can they jump from one department to the next? And so the best thing is if you're an A plus student, is that thing that I think they need to think about, it's not only the grades is what I'm trying to say it, it's showing that you're passionate about the area you're going into. You have done things at school that when you're telling that experience, you can use those things towards experience just so you show you're not green and you have a clear understanding.

Lauren:

And then if you are a recent graduate and move to a new city and you don't know anyone and you're trying to get a job, where do you begin?

Sandy:

So Yay LinkedIn. That's the way to find out connections. The big thing, is to find one person. All you need to worry about that you can call and say, I've just moved here. I'm really interested in learning more about the industry in this town, can I come in and talk to you for 15 minutes. And during that conversation you would then say, do you know of anyone else I can talk to? And he started to get your name out there. And the big thing to get a job is to try to get there before everyone else sees the position. It's when you started having the competition, when you start to be with other people who had a lot of experience, that's when it gets more difficult. If you can get in there, talk to them, let them see how everything transfers over, that's going to give you a good chance. When I first moved up here, I was going into a new career and I physically went to the company, went and talked to them and showed my interest as opposed to just sending my resume because the career I was starting, I really didn't have any experience. So I went in there and talked the language and showed my interest by physically making that effort to show a bit more than just sending in the resume. And that person, um, ended up being a lot of referrals for me in my future career going forward.

Phil:

It's so interesting to think about this perspective from that scary, volatile, vulnerable recent grad. I just, I feel the stress of how I felt right after I graduated undergrad and after my masters I felt even more pressure. But now as an employer we keep things small. So I'm not a big employer. Certainly I've hired people and fired people over the years to now have experience in both sides, makes me really aware of what it takes to grab our attention at least and stay or be not quite positioned for that opportunity. And the one thing I'm, this is what I'm curious to hear your perspective on. What I find nowadays a lot of people approach me for a job, mostly focusing on the value that it brings to them with very little to no consideration on my perspective and what I need and what's useful for my business, what adds value to me that's very frustrating because it's more often than not people.

The other day I got a message on LinkedIn. Phil, I'm three months from graduation and I'm really excited. If there's anything I can do for you, let me know. That was the message. Like what? I don't know anything about you. You're now expecting me to go to your LinkedIn profile in my spare time and expecting me to answer that on my own. I'm not even, I didn't even message the person back. I find it really frustrating. Is this something you find as well and how can people audit themselves to make sure they're not that person?

Sandy:

And do well? Absolutely. The one issue you said if the companies aren't there to do a favor for you. My famous quote is they don't hire you out of charity, and even charities don't hire people out of charity. They want someone who's gonna get in there and save them time and money. So this person you're talking about should have prefaced her request by saying, this is my background, this is why I'm interested in you, these are the things that I feel I could bring to your organization to help you. So it's not help yourself. It's how can you help the company? So the way to look at it is the companies higher looking at two things. Are you going to save me time and are you going to help make us money? That's what they're focused on. You know, profits and efficiencies. So if someone just randomly writes, Hey, I've got time without you being able to see that it's not going to happen. I milk to death the statement of saying, what is your value? Because that is really what they need to know. So this individual you're talking about didn't end up that, you know, you know, she went to school, she seems eager, she's seems, you know, assertive. But you really haven't got the value of how she's going to help your company and that's what people miss.

One of the things that I have to deal with a lot is people with graduate degrees. When you ask them why should I hire you? They refer to their schooling only, which I'm not seeing necessarily how that MBA or whatever degree it is, is going to come into play. I need to know that you have the practical knowledge as well. So bring up the situations that you did in school that would directly impact the company in what you're doing. So tell for your instance, you know you had that purple couch that was above and beyond your academics that you did and you started that and that would be something they would want to emphasize.

Lauren:

And then how do you interview? Well, like once you get the job interview, once you follow the steps, once you network, how do you ace that interview?

Sandy:

So the first thing I would say is, is the word interview. I tell people to read them in this ad and think of it as a meeting. I think if you're thinking that you're going to just go to coffee with someone, your whole demeanour changes as opposed to I'm going to be interrogated. That's how people take it. And how they prep for an interview is often reading the pages and pages of typical questions, preparing your cue card answer and going in there. Instead. I say you should be looking at three main things.

Um, we call them the three Cs because they all start with illiteracy. So how do you show your competencies? How do you show your compatibility? And that compatibility doesn't just mean you get along with people. It's the compatibility to the company. And the most important one is the credibility. Do I really believe that you can do this shot? Do I really believe is this a company that you want to be with? And I really believe you're gonna make a difference. That's the key way to prep of how you're going to do it. And start to think of examples that you can give to show them, you can trust me on this. And that's where I think people fail.

They have their standard answers and they go in there and just rattle off the answers and as someone who's interviewed thousands, I can tell when they've got a cue card going in their head and it just makes it insincere. I feel like we're doing the script. So while you went to be ready and prepped and think this out, you have to be prepared for the unexpected questions that might just come at you out of nowhere and know that you need to just keep thinking, am I doing this three Cs and am I showing them that I really want to be here and hiring me would be a very smart business decision for them.

Phil:

Very few of us and possibly none of us have done as many job interviews as you and I'm curious to know, are there any, when you look back at all of the interviews you've done, do you have any stories, good or bad, any stories of memorable interviews? I'm just curious to know like what comes to mind first? Well, on the bad side, yeah, of course. Let's get juicy.

Sandy:

Yeah, I got someone who came about 15 minutes late for the interview. That is, that's a no right there. Racing in looked a little, you dishevelled, comes in and he says, Oh, I'm sorry we just had a power outage. The clock was on and off, blah blah blah. Well the irony was he lives near the area where I lived and there was no power outage.

Lauren:

Oh my gosh.

Sandy:

That was that. You know, I've had people come in and this is the one that changes it right away if they know nothing about us, that totally nicks is any credibility. So if they come in and I ask a question such as, you know, why do you want to work here? And they started asking me questions that are right there on page one on our website. That's not, I have to feel that they have researched us. They have thought this through and how they can be.

So the one, the other part of your question and we'll end crushing it really comes to me. And the answer that was amazing was asking what your typical questioning task, what was your biggest achievement? And the response came talking about a marathon that this person had done who is a non runner. Now when you ask a question, what you're hoping to get in the answer is, not how nice for you, but how nice for us the company, we see this as a value for us. So when she started talking about all she had to do to prepare and get ready for a marathon, in my head I'm thinking, I'm not getting this. This is how nice for you. This is not how nice for us and what she did and of her story, which was interesting and very well said and well spoken. She then said, I'm telling you the story about my marathon because I feel it's the best way I can illustrate the type of worker I am, that if there is a challenge, I think it through conceptually, I plan accordingly and I always get better results than are expected.

That nailed it, that nailed it because she flipped it to this is what you're going to get. And I immediately saw how she's going to save time and money for us right away.

Phil:

I love it.

Lauren:

I love it. We both love it cause it's got like chill.

Phil:

Yeah cause it's, but I'm like Lauren, that's what we want to hear. I'm thinking now I'm full sail university has their hall of fame of, and this is where I went to school, graduated 2011 go back every year, work with students and people get really excited that I'm on campus. Cause we talk about branding, we talk about things that they're desperate to get answers to so that they can have success in the workplace. A lot of people say, Phil, I'd love to work for you. And then I'm waiting for every, I say, man, you better have at least two or three you stay pads and you just prove that, that that person was successful because they made it about you. I'm not running a charity. You know, I'm not, I, I have enough responsibility day to day as an adult that I don't need any more responsibility quite honestly. But if you bring value, there's something that you can do that grows my business or makes Lauren's life and my life easier. Now I'm listening. It's just a simple sweat.

Sandy:

Exactly. Exactly. It is branding and it right along with what you're saying. Who are you and what are you all about? I just told you about this person with the marathon and we've already branded her. She's an efficient worker that isn't afraid of challenge. That's what this is all about. And that branding should go into her resume. It should go into her LinkedIn and she'd go in the way that she presents herself. And so it's very important for people graduating to know that their resume should not be boring job descriptions. You want to see the value in the resume? No. If you said, I designed a project, my question is, and so what was it successful? What did it do? What were the results?

Stage one in the resume, particularly these new students showing what value and what accomplishment they did as a result of doing something or else I really don't care about it when I’m reading a resume and the whole visual, the look of resumes. Now if you go on Etsy and you look at their resume examples, they're beautiful graphic pieces of art. Those old Ariel, you know, boring headers doesn't work anymore. That's the first thing is make it float to the top. I had someone who was a senior marketer for a very well known company here in Vancouver and due to downsizing she got restructured and came to me and show me her original resume and my first comment was how in the world did you even get in the front door with this?

Lauren:

Mom!!!!

Sandy:

I would've thrown this away. And so I, we changed her resume and whenever I want to do a resume workshop, the first thing I do is show the before and after, we made her anonymous of course, I show the before and after and just watch the participants jaws drop at the difference of why you would grab that one. So that would be one of the first impressions. That would be very important for them.

Lauren:

What about if someone is not a recent graduate and either they're in a really, really competitive industry and can't get a job or want to transition to a different industry? What's your advice?

Sandy:

They should never count on the hiring manager being able to figure out how they can transition. You have to show I did this, therefore that's transferable to you. So I see this, a lot of people who they worked in forestry, they had these responsibilities, but they make it very limited to the forest street area for example. Now they want to work in it. I just see forestry everywhere. What they have to do is show, even though it was this type of work environment, the skills that I did are directly related to you and where I go with this.

So I think the main part is to try to get as many contacts that you can talk to people who are in that industry and say, what is it you're looking for? Stands out. How does this work? Go on LinkedIn? Look at people who have that type of work going on right now. How are they advertising themselves?

Take the job ad. There is a kind of a cool site to use. It's called jobscan.co and it gives you two boxes. The first box is where you put the ad in, the second you put your resume and then it tells you you're 47% strong in this, which is kind of a cool thing to do. Then you go back and you keep tweaking it to make that higher.

Lauren:

Awesome. You've always, since I was a kid, you've always emphasized the importance of networking and never burning bridges and respecting the people that you know. Do any stories come to mind of any kind of horror stories come to mind of people who have disrespected the referrals so that it's a warning to everyone who's listening?

Sandy:

It is. So even if you worked at the absolute worst place on earth, you, never say that out loud because the first thing that comes into the hiring manager's head is, what are they gonna say about me if they leave here? So two examples was there was a person who I actually placed four when I was a recruiter. For me it was great because I got a fee every time I play someone with them. And it was wonderful because we turn them over so fast because he was not a great man to work for. I knew this and he knew it. He said, if they can stay with me for months, that's great. So I had two people come to me to leave him, which wasn't a surprise. Um, so the first one comes in and just to test her, I said, you know, I'm sure it's challenging for you working for this individual.

And that opened her up for the next five minutes. He was ripped to shreds. I will probably say that everything she said was probably true, but it was just bursting out of her. The next person comes in and I did the same question and she paused and said, you know, it was interesting for me because I've learned how to work with someone who is so passionate about their work. And while the style maybe wasn't in line with what I was used to, it taught me that I can modify my approach to work any type of condition so much better.

Phil:

What a difference.

Sandy:

Another one is um, someone came in to the interview and this is a big thing. Be really nice to that person at the front desk because I've come out to ask people who are reception or the first impression person, what did you think? Cause that matters a lot..

So I have a story where someone came to the reception that I was going to see when I was a recruiter and we were upgrading our computer system. Everyone had to do this long form and I warned her, I said this form is going to take about 15 minutes. I apologize, but it's just going to make it better for us and better for you, in the long run. She said, no problem. So I was walking down the hall receptionist facing me and she has her back to me and she's ranting and raving to the receptionists about the form screaming, carrying on. I didn't come here, to have to fill out an application.

Totally different from what I'd heard on the phone. I walked behind her, she never saw that I witnessed this. And back to my office called reception. And I said, is that my next appointment? And she said, yes it is. I came out there walking down the hall, I'm hoping, please be rude to me because at least I know what I've got here. But if you all of a sudden turn on the charm to me, and feel it's okay to trash that front desk person, we have a bigger problem. So I walked out there and said, you know, I'm really so sorry about that form, thank you for doing it. And she said, oh no problem. No problem. Happy to do it. So she was over, that was it.

Lauren:

So two faced!

Sandy:

Yeah. You don't want to touch this kind of people. So I think the big thing is that people have to remember, companies want to hire people who will do something for them and they have to realize that after a great interview, the power is now on that applicant. We had people come in, they leave, and we are looking at each other saying, how are we going to get this person? How do we bring them in? We need this person, what can we do?

And this has been for people who've come right out of school. It's the way they show themselves. Like the marathon runner that I did the example of, and what they do that the tide turns and now the company wanting you.

One of the most powerful things you can do is that when you're leaving the interview when they say, you know, we'll give you a call, we're going to do this, the usual conversation they have at the end, most people will get up and say thank you and walk out the door. Every now and then you get a person who looks the hiring manager in the eye and says, thank you. After this conversation, I want to let you know that I am so enthusiastic about your organization and I would welcome the opportunity to work here. It's almost emotional to have someone look you in the eye and say it, and I would say 90% of people miss that opportunity. They just leave without the follow it up always. It's not even a nicety anymore. This is mandatory with some service.

A thank you note within 24 hours re-emphasizing why you want to be in that organization. And if you met more than one person, it's really important that you send a note to each of those people that makes sure they're different because they compare them.

So we had someone who sent me a wonderful note, it was beautiful and I was so excited until the other individual who met them sent their note and it was word for word the same, just changed her name [inaudible] and it was insincere. Yup. So they blew out. Yeah, of course. Sal. Is that amazing? Yeah. They just look for people that have some sign that they will be a loyal employee and their heart is in the company, not for themselves.

Phil:

It makes perfect sense. And how interesting to hear from someone like you who's just been through so many interviews and as seen so many instances, you know, successes and failures. So thank you for these amazing stories and for this very actionable advice. I feel like people are really going to enjoy this and just be excited to hear you know and feel inspired and maybe not so nervous about that job interview or networking or all these things.

Sandy:

Exactly. Thank you, Phil.

Phil:

You're a superstar. Thank you. We're probably going to call you again and even if it's not Mother's Day, but see, but it's been so valuable Sandy and thank you again for sharing such great advice and we'll talk to you soon.

Sandy:

Thank you so much. Take care.

Phil:

So I've only heard those anecdotes and that advice when I'm like having coffee with your mom, which I've done by the way a few times visiting Vancouver. I just love Sandy. She is just so full of great stories and advice and today was no different.

Lauren:

And she's so positive. She truly believes that anyone has the capacity to achieve their dreams and do whatever they want. She thinks hard, hard work and being conscious of other people around you is really, the magic formula for life.

Phil:

And if you didn't get something that you can take away from that students, I'm talking to you or recent grads, you didn't take something from that conversation that you can implement, then you're crazy and you need to become a better listener than that. That interview should be made into a course as far as I'm concerned because, just so many people miss the mark on this stuff. That I would say is common sense, but it is. But it also really doesn't hurt to hear it again because we get inundated and we get busy and we get sidetracked and maybe we don't prepare the right way for an interview. So to hear from someone who spends a lot of time doing those interviews and hiring, take that advice and do something with it.

Lauren:

I mean, Phil, other than learning how to make websites and record audio, did you learn anything from school itself or was most of what you had learned through extracurriculars?

Phil:

Extracurriculars and just the responsibility that having to have assignments and I would say just in terms of project scope, like having to write a freaking long essay. I don't even remember what I wrote about, but I remember having to do those projects and having to have them done by a certain date. That's what's valuable about school. But it's always your personality, your demeanour, your way of communicating, your proven work ethic, your experience, your portfolio that shows me you're capable of doing for me what you, maybe have done, for someone else. Those are the elements that get people jobs. And those are the things that lead to career opportunities, I think.

Lauren:

Yeah, and life skills. I mean even getting the job is one thing, but we've seen this with people that you've hired for your work. You have to also rock the job once you've got it. And I think having those life skills puts you in a better position to be able to succeed.

Phil:

Absolutely. Well Great. What do you think, what are those pieces of advice that you used from your own mom when you were applying for jobs?

Lauren:

Well, you, you're like, you're like all of them. Literally. I've had a resume since like fourth grade, completely serious. The, what I learned most from my mom is the importance of little courtesies that are more work for you but make all the difference. So the thank you note, within 24 hours of whether it's a job or just a meeting, it's important to respect others. Others time and my sending a thank you note, it reinforces to that person that you respect their time and what they've offered and that's memorable. I have also learned from the interview process that like my mom said, you can't put the onus on the other person to read between the lines and try to make the puzzle pieces fit. It's up to you to decipher and, show how you can help them. Like don't force them to read between the lines. Bring it straight back to the other person to show how you're a value.

And lastly, I would say that my mom really emphasizes being yourself. I think we can all tell when you're getting a cookie cutter message or like my mom's had a canned response and we can tell when something is like forced or scripted or insincere. So being natural and authentic goes a huge, huge way. Well I guess a long way, but it makes a huge difference.

Phil:

Great Advice. Thank you Sandy and happy Mother's Day to you. Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers listening. This just feels perfect timing. Not only that, but also as I mentioned, Hall of Fame happening this month and so many students about to, you know, go from student to grad in a matter of one day and it's like, okay, hit the ground running. Usually the people that are successful though only are already the ones that have a plan in place or might already have a job lined up. It's not always the way. Don't feel pressure, if that's not you, but it's not going to come to you.

You've got to really be proactive and smart and aware about how you approach all of this. What is sticking with you from this conversation with Sandy that’s what we want to know. I’m @philpallen.

Lauren:

I'm @thelaurenmoore.

Phil:

#brandtherapy is where we can continue the conversation. Hopefully it's been useful for you. I think it definitely has. If you enjoy this episode, then leave us a review. Very simple. It just takes a few seconds, but it really does make a difference to help people find what we work really hard to make for you. But besides that, I think I'm, I don't know, I'm feeling pumped after this. Hopefully you are too. We'll be back again very soon with a brand new episode weekly, but a brand new episode of Brand Therapy. We will see you then.

Lauren:

Bye.