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How much should you charge for creativity? 👩‍🎨 Whether you're an artist, a writer, or an interior designer, knowing the fair price for an intangible service can be tough to figure out. This episode, however, we chat with someone who *has* figured it out. Meet Natasha Minasian, an Orange County-based interior designer who owns The Studio at DRC in Costa Mesa and DRC Studio in San Diego, all while offering interior designer services to high-end clientele. In this fun conversation, Natasha helps creatives figure out how to provide value while understanding your worth, and she recounts her own billing-related experiences over the years. A must for anyone who sends invoices for their work.

Phil:

Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm one of your therapists, Phil.

Lauren:

Oh my gosh. Therapist! I guess I'm a therapist too. I'm Lauren.

Phil:

You are a therapist Lauren. And we are brand therapists.

Lauren:

Wait, I need to interrupt here to clarify, we are not licensed professionals. If you are having fleeting thoughts or feelings of depression, seek another channel immediately. Okay, continue Phil. I just needed to protect ourselves.

Phil:

We are brand therapists. What's that you ask? Well, maybe you have some challenges with your business or your brand or you want some advice. You are in the right place. And let me tell you even more why you're in the right place today, because we're talking about money, money, money.

Lauren:

We are. We're, getting deep into money today.

Phil:

I love money. I love being deep into money. I love it.

Lauren:

That’s why you go to Colombia so often. Because there, you feel like a millionaire.

Phil:

Yes, exactly, because my money stretches farther because it has to offset the ridiculous cost of living in London. So I am currently escaping the world in Colombia where, let me give you an example. Okay. I spent a lot of money on my dinner yesterday relative because I ordered it on Uber eats because I was in the mood for something fresh and I was working on my slide presentation for upcoming conferences and I thought, I don't really want to disrupt this moment to go walk down the street and get a poke bowl. So I spent the equivalent of $9.53 cents. I just converted it in for you.

Lauren:

Oh my gosh.

Phil:

That's what I spent. Do you think it's worth it? I think it is.

Lauren:

You know, I think it is too. I read, I'm going to butcher his last name, but whatever, James Altucher’s book recently and he talks about how millionaires spend money on things that will save them time or on things that will bring them rest and help with their overall relaxation. So if you are someone who doesn't like cooking or if you're in the middle of working and your time is valuable, then yes, the $9.53 is totally worth it.

Phil:

Thank you James for approving my poke bowl. Please now approve my massage!

Lauren:

Oh Gosh.

Phil:

Natasha is an expert on the podcast. We wanted to call her and get her opinion on this because she's so sweet. We love her.

Lauren:

We love her.

Phil:

In this career, we've worked with a lot of interior designers over the years and I think it's a really tough industry to be in. But, I admire Natasha who is part of DRC show room. Shout out to Pam as well. These two are incredible. They're talented, but they're successful and they've become successful by being able to price and put a value on their time and that's the discussion we get into very specifically today.

Lauren:

Yeah. And adding onto that, especially when you're working in a creative industry, like decorating someone's home, charging by the minute or by the hour is a very challenging thing to do. Being on the client side, if you're finding that someone is taking their time, finding the perfect curtains or whatever, and then you get a big invoice for the time it took to pick things out without even buying them, that's a really difficult conversation to have and often a difficult pill to swallow. So our hope is that by having Natasha on the podcast today, we're able to figure out her strategy for navigating those situations and for properly billing for her time while also maintaining and strengthening client relationships.

Phil:

Oh, I'm so excited. Let's do it. Let's get right to this conversation with our dear friend and talented, extraordinaire interior designer, Natasha.

Phil:

Well, this is pretty exciting. Our dear friend Natasha is on the phone. Natasha, welcome.

Natasha:

Hi Guys.

Phil:

We are super happy to chat with you today because, well let me give you a few reasons. Reason number one, your one of my most watched instagrammers on my account and I'd love to give you all the credit for it but it's Nikolai, your most adorable baby in the world who is literally always happy and smiling and I'm not one for liking mom and baby account's. Babies don't really do it for me. I love Labrador retrievers. I like dogs, I don't like babies but let me make one huge exception and he is so freaking cute!

Natasha:

Thank you.

Phil:

And so we've worked together in the past. We've worked together on projects in branding and you are one of the owners at DRC showroom with multiple locations and you are an interior designer. Lauren and I were chatting that we get many guests on the show looking for some therapy and a lot of times they are in industries that are creative. And a big part of it is how do you make money as a creative? And we thought this is fun to get you on the phone because we know you listen to the podcast and now you get to be a guest on it and shed some light on this challenge. So welcome.

Natasha:

Thank you. Well that's so exciting because literally this is one of the things that I think I'm good at answering questions about but I also struggled with it so much when I was starting out in the design industry. Money is a hard thing to talk about and charging for your time, especially as a creative person, you know, we tend to be always critical of our own work and perfection is the enemy of good. So you're always thinking “well I'm not quite there yet, so I can't really charge what I think I should charge.” It's just a big scary thing and I feel that even the biggest designers and the top names in the industry still struggle with that. “Well what are you doing? How are you doing it? Am I doing it right? What's your thing? Are you charging hourly or you're not charging hourly? Is there one fee that's demystifying within the industry, I think always a hot topic.

Lauren:

You've always been really, really smart because you've gotten your hands on a bunch of different things and you have multiple income streams. So talk to us about that. Is that something that you'd advise for any creative?

Natasha:

So it kind of started out where I was designing and I had a small client base. I worked at a retail place and I had a few clients that wanted to work with me independently and I was always scared of going outside of there, especially because I hadn't gone to design school yet. I went to UCI for film and media, but I never was ready to call myself a designer and I had clients ready to hire me and I thought, well how the hell am I going to charge for my time? How will I charge for my time if I'm not a certified designer, if I haven't gotten the certificate and I haven't gone to school for it. So one of the things I had to do was a certificate program. I went to ISD in Newport and I just studied interior design so that I would be able to say I'm an interior designer. That was one of the things where I didn't necessarily need the education to be creative and to do the work, but I needed it to be able to have that seal of approval and say I am a designer.

Lauren:

It makes sense. You needed it to feel right for the role.

Natasha:

Yeah. Some of it is like faking it til you make it and being confident and just showing up even when you've only done two projects. Having the confidence to say, I can do this and I'm your girl and yeah, you can't see all the work I've done, but let me show you by working with you who I am and how I'm going to help you. And then the other half is if you don't have the confidence because you can't just fake it til you make it and you're not a natural salesperson, then do the things that get you to the point that you feel comfortable. Get some experience, work for someone else, get that knowledge, go to school, do that program. Even if it's an online course or whatever, read books and just get that knowledge. I remember Phil, one of the things I remember talking about with you and Kelly Ellis was claim what's true, which is like I'm an expert. You know, I am an interior designer, I am a creative. I'm the person in my field that you should come to and this is why you should pay me. But in order to do that, sometimes you feel like you need the certification behind that. So if you're one of those people that need the certification, then please by all means go to school, get that.

Phil:

One of the challenges because you're creative and you're also really nice person.

Natasha:

Pricing is one of the scariest things and I've talked to a lot of designers about how they do it and I think it's kind of a unanimous thing that in the beginning you kind of want to have one flat rate because that's what people complain about. People complain that, you know designers or photographers or whoever, give you these vague descriptions of what their time is, when I just need to know how much it’s going to cost me to do my living room. And the answer that I give clients, is there's really not a clear answer for that. It depends on you, the client. So I believe so strongly in charging hourly and charging for my time because in the past, 10 years ago, you could charge a lot for product. You could make up what you're not making up in your hourly by selling them products and by making a markup on things.

But to be honest, it feels much better to be transparent and honest with your clients. You can just say, ‘Hey, this is what the product costs and I can actually get you a designer discount. But in order for me to help you and for me to spec all these products, and for me to give you all that time, I need to charge for my time because this is a business. At the end of the day, people know you're not doing it for charity, you're doing it because you're making a living. And if I didn't charge for my time, I would have to be working somewhere else and then I would be too busy to help you anyway. I remember working one summer at Bloomingdale's and I was actually too busy to even do hobbies on the side, so I would have to be able to make enough money to cover my bills in order to help people with the side projects.

I started to have clients that wanted to pay me enough for me to leave my jobs in retail. So it's kind of one of those things where you have to charge for your time or you're not even really respected and you're not even respecting your own time and you have to create boundaries and learn how to say no. And I know it sounds really easy to say charge for your time, but even if you're not necessarily charging for all of your time, you need to track your time and you need to let people be aware of what it is. So I know I'm just going on tangents here, but there's a lot of different ways that you could do it, but I still think getting to know the person and the project and then assessing the needs from there, is best. So if I have a client that comes to me and says, I really just want you to pick the furniture for my living room, tell me what this would cost me. I have paint on the walls and I have a blank slate. Okay. I think for a typical living room, it will take me six hours to spec all of the items for you. I'll do a simple space plan. I'll show you what that looks like. My hourly fee is $225 an hour. If you buy in bulks of hours or if you're signing a contract for multiple months, then we can negotiate, you know, maybe something a little bit discounted, but primarily if you want to buy six hours of my time, I'm going to give you these suggestions. I'm going to give you a roadmap. This is what it's gonna look like. Like here's the contract for six hours and if it goes beyond six hours, then I will bill you from there. I'll let you know when we're coming up on the six hours and if you want to do less than six hours, I mean there's not really less than six hours so I don't know why I’m even saying that. But if I'm doing a larger amount like 20 hours and they ask what if it only takes you 14 well then I will credit you back those other six hours that weren't used. I will literally write you a check and give it back to you. But I think it's really important to be able to say this is the chunk of time I think it's going to take me to do this but that's not set in stone. It's what I think it will take for this amount of time. Even if you're a photographer and you know you're going to be with the person for three hours shooting photos and then you're going to edit for what, two hours?

I'm not sure. I'm not even a photographer. I don't know why I’m giving advice on that industry, but I feel like you calculate all the time that it should take you. But then what if they come back to you and say, oh, I really don't like how this photo looks. So bright and light. I wanted it to be more moody and dark. Okay, so you're going to go back and edit. How much more time did that cost and you know kind of factoring in the normal things that you would expect and put in your contract up to two revisions or this includes three different looks. So if I'm doing your living room and I charge to do the six hours for your space plan and your furniture suggestions and my advice and you know my colour concept, here you go. Does that also include the meetings?

Well, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Maybe I only use four hours to spec all of it, and so yeah, I'm including the meeting in it. I usually could do that in six hours. I'll come measure spec and then have the meeting. But certain people like to have a really long meetings. They want to talk through every single thing and that's where you have to include it. Like this will be one. It'll be the first meeting of 30 minutes of measuring and me checking out your space. Then I'll talk to you about the space. I'll see what your needs are and then I'm going to go home to work on it. It may not be that day, but it's going to be over that week and in one week you'll hear from me, we'll have our scheduled meeting.

We can have a phone call to chat about it and then we'll have a one hour sit down meeting where we review it together and we can go through the proposal whether it's the way that Phil and I like to do things, but it's like on the phone with a pdf and you're clicking through it and looking at the pages or if you actually like to meet in person cause you want to see some fabrics and textures and you know with design it's hard to kind of do that virtually though it is possible.

You know, I schedule it like that and I say it's an hour long meeting for us to go through these things, but if you need more than an hour, that's okay. That'll just be additional. And you know, people like to know what that is and they like to know, okay, I can pay for more time if I need it, but this is what the expectations are. The biggest thing to me is setting expectations and then try to go above and beyond without going outside of the boundaries that you've set.

You know, don't just throw an extra hour because nobody asks for that. If I say it's going to take me six hours, and go back to them the next week and I say, oh well, you know, I'm sorry it took me so long to get this to you and it actually took me eight hours, but I'm only billing you for six. They're well why did you even tell me that? I feel like that's a thing with the creative world too is we sometimes have a difficult time putting a gauge on how much time it will take us and then you sometimes feel awkward going back to the person and you know, letting them know like, oh I actually spent eight hours instead of six. You have to really get to know yourself and you have to be yourself so you have to be confident.

I know I am a nice person or you know, I could be a pushover in some ways or I can get too friendly and I'll become friends with people and suddenly I'm sitting there talking about what are my favourite shampoo and blushes and I'm like, oh my God, I just spent an hour talking about my hair with her and I told her I'm coming over for an hour. So I literally will back it out of my time. I take that into account and I will write a two hour visit at the house. But then I'll write on the bill I deduct one hour for personal chatting or whatever.

My invoices can have personalized things in them where I literally write I deducted one hour for you babysitting my child or you know something funny just to put it in there and they're realizing like if you went to a therapist and they talked about themselves for 20 minutes, you'd be like, oh my God, I can't believe I paid you for this.

But you know, as a designer there's this, they're helping you but they're your friend and you've let them into your intimate life. But there still needs to be a boundary and I think the more you can inform the client and give them that information on paper, here's the times that we're going to meet and then this is what it costs you extra or this is what I deducted. Or, Hey, I did do eight hours of this, but let me let you know that since I only was going to bill you for six, I gave you two hours free to put it on their bill. You don't have to have some awkward conversation about it.

Phil:

Yup. I can remember. I obviously, to live in the US, had to work with an immigration attorney because I'm Canadian and I can remember going in for my first meeting with my attorney and he was amazing. He’s since passed, bless his heart, he was amazing and he was just this crotchety but savvy straight shooter. And I walked in and I was a bit nervous and he said, sit here, you've got a 15 minute meeting with me and it's complimentary. And the way he said it made it very clear that every interaction thereafter was not complimentary. But I really appreciated that moment.

Natasha:

That’s smart!

Phil:

Yeah, it was. It was. He told me before he had even sat down, I sat in a chair and he was, as he was sitting, he said, you've got a 15 minute meeting with me right now. And it's complimentary.

Lauren:

I love that.

Natasha:

It actually gave you that, “hey, I'm just letting you know that if this goes beyond 15 minutes, I don't mind chatting with you, but time is money.”

Phil:

Exactly. Time is money and while it may feel uncomfortable because I don't say that on our intro calls and now after this conversation I'm thinking maybe I should find a way to say it in a very Phil way. “Hey, thank you so much for taking time to chat. We've got 15 minutes today. This is a complimentary intro call, so we'll explore the possibility of collaborating. Tell us your goal in a few sentences so we can understand how maybe we can work together. There, why don't I say that? What I just said would be so great, but to state your expectations.

Natasha:

Yeah. Honestly that's it. Sometimes you know, it depends. When you're working with other creatives, there's this tendency because I'm someone that builds for my time, I appreciate it. I feel like the way that you and Lauren do it, it's very clear to me everything was so cut and dry and yet super friendly and felt intimate and like you were really getting to know our brand to be able to help us and to brand us, but it did not feel at all like Oh my God, I have no idea how much money this is going to cost. It was very clear and if I wanted to add certain things and I didn't understand it I was able to ask you for more. And I think a lot of times people are scared of giving too much information or not enough information and it's kind of like it goes with your personality.

I'm a very wordy, talkative person. When I write an email, they're very long and descriptive so sometimes I give them more information then they need and clients can always get back to me and ask me about it. And if I live more than an hour away, you're going to charge me for your driving time. And I'll just explain it to them. And I, you know, I used to say I don't bill for phone calls and then I realized I had certain clients that would literally call me and talk to me for an hour every night and it would be 9:30 PM and my husband was losing it. Why does everybody think this is okay? Well, I'm a night owl. And they know that. So they don't call me at 6:00 AM they call me at night. He's like, I know, but that's not normal.

However, are you billing them for it? And I was like, well no, I feel bad. And I don't want to talk to them at 6:00 AM. And he's like, why do you feel bad? It’s kind of is that one thing that the people want you to have boundaries because they want you to explain to them what is it that I need to do to not piss you off as a client. I always tell my accountant like, oh my God, I'm the this client right now. Let's say I'll use a different name for someone, but let's say Kimmy, like, oh my God, I'm being such a Kimmy right now. And Kimmy is a client that I have let take advantage of me over the years. And maybe because they're a great client and maybe because they referred a lot of people, but you know, you never want to be that person. So you don't want that client and you don't ever want to be that client. So let's think of your clients and the people that you're trying to charge. They just want to understand like what is it that I'm going to get from you and how much does that cost?

Phil:

Makes sense.

Lauren:

I always try to think of a restaurant. This is so silly, but I get really uncomfortable with money and charging too, but I thought to myself if what we were offering creatively was instead something that you could order at a restaurant. It's like if you want extra guacamole at Chipotle, you pay $2, that's the price. That's what it is. That's how much it costs. This is how things go. It’s just how my brain works.

Natasha:

You have no idea. I worked for one month, well I shouldn't have worked there because I did not have the qualifications, but somehow I convinced them that they should hire me. I was a cocktail waitress in a sports bar. It was during college and I literally had a hard time, I would go to the kitchen and be like, I'm do people on a side of vegetables and they're like, well did you put it in the computer? What do you mean they want a side of vegetables? If you put it into the computer It will will show you your side will be $2 and I just thought like celery and carrots for free. And they were like, what? It was, you know, I think back to that time a lot of times like I was so I had such a hard time, I didn't want to tell the person that asked can we get some more carrots?

You know, the kids were sitting there eating the carrots and celery with the buffalo thing and was done and they wanted more carrots than can we get some more carrots? And I'd be like, sure, no problem. And then I was like, oh my God, do they know I'm going to charge them? So then I was like, oh, I'll just go to the cook and I'm, or the people in the back and I'll tell them I need the carrots. They're like, you need to put it in the computer. And I, you know what finally occurred to me, like if you're scared for them to find out later that you charge them $2 like just let them know now like, yeah, that's fine. I can get them for you, but it's going to be two more dollars. Are you okay with that? If you are nervous about it?

Yeah, talk about it or just put it on the bill because people expect to pay two more dollars for the exercise of veggies. Like it's a strange thing, but it's like the more you do it, the more you get in the habit of it and it becomes natural. And a lot of times it takes like scurrying up a few times to be able to have that confidence and be able to say, no, no, let me tell you when I did it the way where it was a flat rate, like you will resent me, I will resent you, we will not want to work together. This will end up a disaster.

Lauren:

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Now, Natasha, you work a lot. I remember you were in labor answering and responding to work emails.I know it was important but I think we can all agree that not every woman would be responding to work emails while in Labor at the hospital. And so you're so dedicated and you obviously love what you do, but I wonder how do you know when something is worth the time? For example, you also co-own a major store. When you started off with that venture, how did you know that you would have the time for that and that it was worth the risk?

Natasha:

Yeah, the scary thing is like sometimes you just bite off more than you can chew and then you have to figure it out. So I actually decided I was working on my biggest project ever at 15,000 square foot ground up remodel. I mean ground up construction, like brand new construction of a house and was the biggest custom project I've done. And I was like in the beginning months of it and that's when the opportunity came to partner with Pam and open DRC because I was previously one of their customers. I was the designer that shops there and then I became a buyer for them. One thing led to another, I thought she wanted to fire me one day she wanted to talk to me and turns out she just wanted to partner with me and opened a showroom in San Diego so that you know, I couldn't say no to that.

I was very excited about that. I felt this is definitely what I need to do and I had already signed on for the brand new construction job. I had a few other clients that I could never let down, you know, they were my good clients for six years or more. And I also, was planning a wedding. So in the same year we were opening DRC, San Diego, I was working on a construction project that was insane and I was planning my wedding and I think I was sleeping like three and a half to five hours max a night. And it was psycho. Like literally I had to bite off way more than I could chew. I lost 20 pounds. I was eating Quest bars and licorices. Those were the only things that were in the showroom. Oh, people are like, oh my gosh, your wedding diet, you look so great.

I was like a one woman show. That was, you know, now we have a team of 15 in San Diego, but at the time it was, Pam and I opening the show room and we had Lauren—she's currently our director of sales and operations—but she was, you know, our one manager and salesperson and we had one other salesperson. So I literally would end up sleeping in the showroom some nights. Like, no kidding. It'd be five in the morning and I was like, I will have to just lay down and take a nap on this chaise real quick because I have to drive home and I am too tired. But you know it literally was biting off more than I could chew and saying yes to everything because I feel in the beginning you have to say yes everything you, you do all those opportunities that are the free portfolio building things and then there becomes a point when you're like, Oh God, why am I providing free consultations when I don't have any hours left in the week?

It wasn't until I had no more time left that I realized, okay, you're killing yourself. You can't do this. Also my dad would call me and be like, you realize that you're a newlywed, you have to go home. Like it's one in the morning. Your husband will divorce you. And you know, I come from a family of workaholics. I feel my dad is a workaholic, but I mean it's because it's part of who you are. You know? It's like, I don't mean to always be working. If somebody told me like you will answer emails while you are in labor, I'd be like, you're insane. Like I'm, when I'm in labor I'm just going to be like asking for the drug. Then I'm just going to be laying there like enjoying my five minutes of life before I have a baby. But in the moment, you know things that are important to you, you prioritize and you know like what is urgent?

And I knew our website was urgent, but my client asking about a memo sample, that, was not urgent and my assistant or somebody else could take care of it. So I think saying no and setting boundaries are two of the biggest advice things for people that are creative and working and you already have clients.

Phil:

And yeah, it’s a process, right? You evolve and it's a marathon, not a sprint. So you've got to start, you gotta prove yourself proof of concept, we talk about a lot on this and as you earn the ability to evolve as you earn the ability to start charging money for things you had to do previously for free in school or as soon as you graduate to build a portfolio and then you chip away. Even like starting to charge more. Maybe you've reached a point where maybe you've invested back in your business so you can do a better job and charge more money for what you offer. We've raised our prices many times over the years and do it usually through branding so it's less awkward. Well, I just feel like you've shared a lot of really useful things on this, particularly for creatives. So good questions to ask yourself. Things to think about and ways to make the whole thing less awkward, you know, I think that's been really valuable. So thank you so much for your time. I know by the way, you have to catch a flight to Paris pretty soon, right?

Natasha:

Waiting for them to knock on my door and be like, remember you said you were going to be on the phone for 20 minutes and then you just get talking.

Phil:

We will let you head to Paris but before that thank you so much for shedding light on this topic, it's been wonderful to chat and best of luck over there. Over here I should say.

Natasha:

I hope it’s helpful. I mean it’s the craziest thing. I didn't ever realize this is where I would be. And now I get to go to Paris to shop at the furniture market, like fashion week for furniture. And it's insane and I mean it's just because one thing led to another and you just build on it and be yourself and just say yes, yes yes and then learn to say no and just hustle.

Phil:

Love it. Yeah, love is you guys for sure.

Natasha:

You guys are totally inspiring and you're the same way. And I just love that it's one of those things where you just connect with the people that inspire you and make you feel good and help you make you better. You guys are amazing branders and gurus of the business.

Phil:

Well, thank you for the kind words and for your time and for joining us on Brand Therapy and best of luck in Paris and we'll chat with you soon.

Natasha:

Thank you! I know, hopefully I'll see you there.

Phil:

I would love that. I would love that. Safe flight, we'll talk soon, Natasha. Okay. Bye Bye.

Natasha:

Thank you. Bye guys.

Lauren:

That was so refreshing, don't you think?

Phil:

Yeah. Well, I also like that she was just honest about her own struggles with that. It's kind of fun to talk to someone who says, wow, that's been a challenge, but I'm now in this space to talk about it because I've been through those challenges. I love that that is what happened.

Lauren:

Me too. And a lot of people have called in. We've talked about pricing a lot on this show, but even when she said that she is a firm believer in charging hourly, I grimaced. That's something that you and I are working on and don't feel comfortable doing. So it really made me think about the confidence and delivery, how important that delivery is to your client. To be able to stand up for yourself, but at the same time be fair to everyone involved with the service.

Phil:

Well I guess charging money isn't mean, why do we associate charging money with being mean? Like in the way that she was illustrating how important it is to communicate upfront, the benefits of that being really clear, managing expectations. Actually it's the opposite. It is friendly, It's welcoming, draw the lines in the sand so people can exist within it. It's that same concept. It doesn't have to be mean just because it's money and it's sensitive and it's personal and it's scary. It's not mean charging money is not a mean thing.

Lauren:

No, it's not at all. And when she said that the amount of time she spends with a client depends on the client, she outright says that depends on you. This light bulb went off for me and I realized for the clients that we have that are really difficult with revisions and wanting to go back and forth, it's our responsibility to make it clear at the beginning that we will help them. We love helping them, but at the same time the amount that it's going to cost is dependent on on how picky they are.

Phil:

Completely. Yeah, completely. In general, I think we can all evaluate and find room for improvement, right on the way we communicate our pricing. And so I guess to sum up that thought, you know, for creatives, where your work can be a little bit more challenging to communicate in terms of structure, communication, communication, communication, that is what will get you over this hurdle. End of story.

Lauren:

Definitely.

Phil:

Well, if you've enjoyed this chat, Natasha, by the way, thank you for hanging out with us. I mean that was really beneficial for the listener, for us. If you've enjoyed this conversation, make sure, A, you find Natasha on Instagram mostly for cute baby photos and B, tag us @philpallen and @thelaurenmoore. What is Natasha's handle again?

Phil

I think it's her full name. Natasha, I don't know how to pronounce your last name. I'm sorry. Natasha Minasian. That's how I pronounce it. I don't know if that's, exactly. N. A. T. A. S. H. A. Natasha. M. I. N. A. S. I. A. N. That's true. I've never said it out loud. I've always just typed it.

Lauren:

Or is it Minausean? I don't know.

Phil:

Well that's it. Yeah, that's it. And follow Natasha, she's got the cutest child and Natasha, thank you. Tag us @philpallen @thelaurenmoore to continue the conversation. #brandtherapy. If you enjoyed this episode, do you know what to do? Go to iTunes, leave a little review. We look at those and they also help other people find this podcast so that others will benefit from conversations like this. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today and every time that you come and hang out with us on Brand Therapy, we'll see you back next week. Brand new episode. We'll see you then.

Lauren:

Can't wait!