53. A Facebook ads expert who knows how to sell (f. Liz Melville)
How do you make money from Facebook without losing money on ads? 👤 We all know the power of Facebook ads, but the investment required to be seen is downright scary. Hosts Phil and Lauren sat down with bonafide Facebook ads expert Liz Melville to figure out how to maximize the bang for your buck on the platform. This episode covers the importance of creating a value offering, understanding your audience, and messaging to make your ads downright irresistible. A must-listen for anyone who's selling a product or service!
Episode transcription
Phil:
Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
and this is a podcast where we help people that face business challenges with their brands and businesses. And we talked about all kinds of exciting things and sometimes even sometimes we have experts on the show and today is one of those days. It's an expert day. Yay.
Lauren:
I love the expert days. Your best idea of 2019.
Phil:
Well I just thought after the first 40 episodes of helping people that you know what, there's some stuff for us to learn as well. That's exactly what happens today. We call my friend Liz. I love Liz.
Lauren:
She's great. Yeah, no and I think it's a, it's just great in general to have a different thorough back up because people are probably like shut up when we're talking now, but now we've got Liz to help us avoid that.
Phil:
Talking about Facebook ads, which is this whole mystery. Right. You know, I, I think it's interesting because there are very few people that I trust on this topic, and I saw Liz speak about this at one of Janet Murray's events, and I thought, actually, you know what, I'm not a big fan of facebook, but she made me be a little bit more of a fan in terms of the opportunities that exist. I like how she spoke about it. That made me want to get her on the podcast, and that's why we're here today.
Lauren:
Well, there you have it. So for anyone who is running Facebook ads but feeling like it's failing or for anyone who's thought of running Facebook ads, but doesn't know where to start, this is the episode for you.
Phil:
Boom town baby. We're talking Facebook ads or we're talking about them with Liz. Shall we get right to it?
Lauren:
Let's go.
Phil:
Here's our conversation with Liz Melville.
Liz:
Liz Melville speaking
Phil:
Liz, it's Phil and Lauren. How the heck are you?
Liz:
Hello, I'm good because I’m speaking to you.
Phil: I am words, don't even describe the joy that I have by the fact that you are on the phone with us because you and I met not even that long ago. And we were like bff’s instantly and literally, I'll never forget leaving the conference. I was like, Liz, I love you. You are like Phil, I love you too. And we just, we're lovers from the moment we met.
Liz:
We are, we are. I would have even gone in your suitcase. You could take me with you. But then that got stolen. So that was no good.
Phil:
Yeah, exactly. Be grateful. You were not in the suitcase that was stolen. Um, I, you know what, and it was also funny, Lauren, you weren't at Janet at content live events. So Liz and I were both speakers and I was making jokes about Facebook because I'm not really an expert on facebook and I'm not much of a presence on Facebook other than my personal profile. And I was like, well, Liz might say, and then we'll Liz talk. She's like, well, Phil might say, but, and we just kind of had this hilarious little banter, but it honestly, Liz watching you at content live listening to you may be go, wow, maybe I should think about what I can do as a business here. And we've had a lot of guests on the show also think or also approach us and say, how do we make sense of Facebook? I'll give an example. We had a private investigator on the show, one of our most listened to episodes and she was like, I'm trying to make sense of facebook and that is what we'll talk about today. But I'm just so happy you're here.
Liz:
Um, I'm really, I'm so happy when I got the email. So lovely. And Hi Lauren.
Lauren:
Hi. Oh, I'm so excited. I read the transcript of your interview with Janet and I just have, I wish we, this call was three hours long because I have so many questions, but I guess it's, we can't do that, so let's hop right to it.
Liz:
No problem.
Phil:
So 2019 Liz, when people approach this topic of what do we do on Facebook, how do we stand out? What is like the first tip or two that come to mind? Like just kick off that train of thought in terms of being successful on this platform that has become more challenging.
Liz:
I think one word Phil, video. You know, it's really all about embracing video because facebook is putting that first and foremost in their plans for the network and what they want it to be as well. I mean they’re taking on the likes of Netflix, they’re taking on Youtube, they're heavily into video and the way to play that on Facebook is to get into that yourself. So I think that's the first thing I would say. And then it really is about having a strategy. And that's probably where I see most people fall down is I'm just going to set up my page because somebody said I needed to, or I think that's where everybody is and then I'll just post some content without any real thought to what that content is or how it's going to hit the mark with people. So I think it is about taking that step back and doing the planning first and say, right, what am I going to post about? What's my strategy? And when I get people looking at post, how am I gonna monetize that? How am I going to turn it into dollars? Because that's at the end of the day, our whole purpose for being on Facebook as a business. So I think that's the main thing. Embrace video and have a really good strategy for how you want to approach it.
Lauren:
So do you think that spending ads on Facebook is a requirement? Like you know how they always say it's a pay to play world? What are your thoughts on that?
Liz:
I think that's such a good question Lauren. And as a Facebook ad staff, yes you must, but I think there is a time and a place for it and I don't think necessarily every business is at the stage where they should be running ads. And let me qualify that because for me, facebook ads are still an expense. You've got to spend money on them, so you want to know that you're going to get a return and unless you know what you're doing with facebook ads, then you probably won't get a return or you're going to be in that space where Facebook ads don’t work because you just didn't see results and it didn't work for me and it’s probably because I just didn’t approach them well. I think it's first of all, is your business at a stage where it can afford to spend on Facebook ads as a business expense regularly with a view to growing and scaling and getting a return on that.
If you're not, if you're in the early stages, it's still often I see that people don't have that cash flow and it can put a real strain and stress on your business too. I think I’ve got to run Facebook ads, but I'm putting all this money into it and I'm not seeing a return because I don't really know what I'm doing. I think it really is about stepping back, seeing is the time right for me to do this and do I know how to do it. And if it is then, then great. But I think for me it's about looking at Facebook ads in terms of how can we help my customer move through the customer journey. So always from having a clue who I am, I want to get them onto my business page, what kind of ads could I maybe run to do that? Like engagement ads and then moving them all the way through to actually buying from you and getting into sort of conversion ads and sales targeting. So there's a place for them. But whether or not you should be using them at any stage, I think it really does come down to to where you're at in your business.
Lauren:
It's really good to know. I also am curious to know, let's say someone is in a position to help to start taking this risk, so to speak and start investing in Facebook ads. Is there a starting spend that you would recommend someone takes? Like for example, when I worked at like I'm in agencies with corporations, I heard that generally there's like a 10% of profits are to put towards marketing as a rule of thumb. So with that in mind, like is there a starting point or a minimum that you recommend someone considers if they're ready for that leap?
Liz:
I guess there's no simple answer to that because a lot depends on what type of ads you're running because it's easy to sort of lump it into this general term Facebook ads. But within that there's about 11 different types of ads you can run each with a specific objective. And depending on what action you want people to take after they see your ads, the cost might not need to be too great. You might not need to spend a lot. So to give an example, if you were just saying, well I put some content on my page, I'd really like more people to see it. I'm struggling to get um, a lot of organic reach, but I just want to reach more people who haven't really come to the page so far. So I put the content on and I'm just going to turn that into an engagement ad where I want people to like comment and share on that post.
Well because that's quite a lightweight action, it doesn't cost you a lot for Facebook to go out and find the kind of people that are likely to do that for you. So you don't need to apply a lot of budget to that kind of add to see a good result that you want. If you take that all the way down to a conversion and that's where you want people to sign up for something, to purchase something actually taken a specific action. There's fewer people in Facebook land that are willing to do that because that's a commitment that's giving an email or you know, parting with their money. So there are few people who are likely to do it. Therefore it will cost you more for Facebook to go and get the type of person who will do that. Therefore you’re probably going to have to spend more on that type of ad to get the result you want.
So I think it really just comes down back to strategy, what is my purpose for running these ads? What's my objective? Am I running the right type of ad to get that and how much might I need to spend and give to Facebook so that they can go out and get me that result. And because if you don't spend enough, then Facebook hasn't got enough to kind of go out there and find people for you. It's almost as if Facebook will say, come on. It's going to cost you $5 to get one lead and you've given me $5 a day, what do you want me to do with that? And soFacebook ads are getting more expensive. We only spend a little bit more and I think the days are gone where you could go in with a dollar a day and a shoestring budget and get lots of people signing up for your legacy.
So I think it's taking a step back again and seeing, right, well what budget have I got out of my revenues? How much do I want to put to my marketing? And what part does Facebook ads have to play in that? Again, Facebook ads are not the panacea, they are not the go to to your marketing problems and it shouldn't be the only marketing activity. I think where they really are powerful is when it's part of a combination of doing other marketing activities and the part of the blend. So it does condense a portion of the budget and how much he wants to put to it, but being realistic about what that will deliver.
Phil:
I love that you still answered that question. You still gave us a figure of like what might be too low nowadays cause I think it's a hard question to answer, but because this is your area of focus, it's super interesting to get your insight on this. I bet. And I know too, one thing that you talk a lot about in what you speak on and podcast, you know, answers, you speak a lot about the importance of the content. Don't just be active and expect results. Be creative and be really sharp with what you're saying. If it's not working, it's probably the content fault, your contents fault, not the ad's fault and the in the role of content. I know that's super important to you. So I wonder are there any brands that you think of or even types of posts that you've seen recently that make you happy or excited where you go, okay, that's smart, that's savvy and I imagine most content is disappointing too cause you're like, oh my God, why didn't this person like when you see people's posts you're like, what? Honestly kind of garbage I do that, you know, this is what we do. But I wonder what have you seen that like brings a smile to your face, Liz?
Liz:
I am. I love that question Phil. So I think you're, when I'm looking to Facebook, I guess I can only go by what makes me smile, which probably means if it's making me smile, I'm that company's ideal customer because they've hit the mark. So what I then came to do is always try to detach myself from that. See? Right. Okay. What was the mechanics of that? Why did that make me smile? Even if I'm your ideal customer, it's usually because they have put that thought into, who am I trying to talk to, what is going to make them smile and react and then they really get their message on point. And quite often the way to do that is by telling stories. It's bringing your message to life in a way that people can relate to. And I've actually just done an extra for my own podcast where we talked about that, the importance of teaching stories.
And you know, I remember sitting on my gran's knee and she would tell me a story and I can still remember that being emotional, you got excited about what was happening and you're listening and hanging on every word. Well we do that with really great content and posts on Facebook as well. When we see something that hits our emotional connection that makes us, you know, drawing something within us, it's almost, you know, animal. It's that pushing those buttons. We go, oh yeah, I really, really resonate with that at an emotional level. That's what makes great content. And you know, a lot of people go, oh, I can't possibly understand how I'm going to do that with my ideal client. I'm not going to put them on a psychiatrist's couch to understand their deep innermost feelings and what they're gonna check out. But you can do it.
And it's just about telling your own story and your journey in a way that relates to the problems and the challenges that people have right now that they can see as their data that they can see you as, oh, this is great. I want to follow this, I want to do more. And you know, it's like binge watching Netflix after that. You draw them in and then they just want to consume your content because you cooked some and they got that need to just keep reading it. If you don't do that, then it's a one hit wonder, you know nothing. If you don't follow up with something, you just lost them. So you've got to give a lot of thought to what you're saying and making sure that that message really is hitting the mark.
Phil:
That's great. Are there products that are too expensive to sell on Facebook or is there a price limit that you've seen? I once heard from someone that the ideal price point for a Facebook ad conversion ad is like $30 or less. Do you prescribe to any of these kinds of thoughts or based on your campaigns and advising to clients? Is there a sweet spot on price of product?
Liz
Yeah, it's an interesting one Phil, to be honest, I mean I have seen coaches, consultants sell high ticket offers to Facebook and Facebook ads. I don't think there's a limit, um, that you, you can sell something that's really high priced using Facebook ads, but then equally people sell e-commerce items on Facebook using Facebook ads. So you've got all ends of the scale. Where it becomes tricky is if you've got a lower ticket item, given that it's getting more, a little bit more expensive to advertise and to acquire leads is becoming more expensive. You might find that your margins for profit and what you're spending compared to what you get back become really difficult when you're trying to sell something that's a low price. And that it is ecommerce, you know, $10 $5 so you're really then looking at either, you know, volume getting enough volume in that makes it worthwhile or it's instead shifting your focus to what's my actual cost per acquisition.
So it's looking at the lifetime value of getting that person to your website. So they don’t just buy that one thing you're promoting? You then have a recurrent and they buy more is that actual sale or is it an add on item? What other things or in a product fee that they're going to look at as well. You can put it in front of them that bumps up to the value of that lead and not, you know, acquiring that to you. So I think as long as you've got a good strategy and you run your numbers and you know your profit margins, you know what you can afford to spend on Facebook ads. Really, you can sell anything at any price. It's just making sure that you do control it in a way that you're going to make profit and that you can monitor it and you know what you're seeing on the dashboard, that you making good decisions and you're not just throwing your money at Facebook and having no clue whether you're losing money or making it.
Phil:
Yeah. Great. I have a fun little thing for us planned. Lauren, did you have any questions before we get into that?
Lauren:
No, let's go into our surprise.
Phil:
Yeah. We haven't told Liz anything. Ashley, Lauren and I have just yet or haven't said anything, but we actually, Liz, we, we've written Facebook ads before. We've worked with clients on this, but we've never actually advertised on our own. We've never run our own Facebook ad campaigns, which I’m kind of ashamed of why haven't we ever tried it? We just haven't. So what we've done, Liz, is we have written some Facebook ads that we are actually gonna run by since we have you on the phone. We're going to read them to you and see what you think. And of course people are going to listen to what the branding experts have written and get some feedback from you. And as I said, right, we haven't sent these to you beforehand. This is a total surprise. So it's going to be like totally candid on the phone. We're going to see what you think of our Facebook ad writing ability. How does it sound?
Liz:
Well, this is where I'm going to caveat this. I'm going to cover myself. I would be the first to admit I'm not great at writing copy myself and I'm very good at reviewing it, but not necessarily writing it. So I'm excellent at running Facebook ads, actually putting it together. That's a different mindset. But yeah, I can usually spot a dog. So go for it.
Phil:
I love it. I'm gonna actually just, just to Liz's point, like Liz, this is your business and in fact you've, you've made a business out of out of this and you're really good at it and you've done this without being a writer. So like this should give us all hope that this is something that we can likely do ourselves or with a little bit of guidance. So I just wanted to point that out because I think that in itself is really cool.
Liz:
Yeah, I know. I'm glad you used that. I can probably write ads myself because I know my customer, but when it comes to clients, no, because they know their clients much better. And so yeah, let's see what you come up with. Go for it.
Phil:
Great. Lauren, should we tell Liz who our customer is first so she understands it then we'll read the ads.
Lauren:
Yeah. Well who our customer is and what we're selling and then we’ll read the ads.
Phil:
Okay, great. We have written ads to market. One of our, basically the starting point for any client that we work one on one with and actually advertise it throughout the podcast specifically right in the middle. But we do a brand audit and this has a deep dive when we explore someone's brand basically where we understand their goals, help them communicate who they are, why people should care, start to look at visuals. We listen for sound bites that should reappear on their website and then anything else they've expressed in terms of wanting to rebrand or brand from scratch. We listen to all of that and put together a recap in about a week of that 90 minute meeting. So that's the brand audit. Okay. It is. How much does it cost, Lauren? I never know. I can never remember.
Lauren:
It's 1000 for the 90 minute session, including the recap and that's, it's like really extensive. I'd say it's like a 40 plus page slide, like a slide recap. So it's pretty a pretty deep dive podcast listeners, however, do get a discount, so make sure to go to philpallen.expert/podcast if you're interested. But yeah, so it's 1000 that's, I think that's part of why you asked about the price point of ads, right?
Phil:
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Cause to me it feels too expensive to advertise. But I'm wrong because like Liz said, you've seen coaches and people sell high price point things. And the final thing I'll say about this is that before we read the ads is that our customer, when they see this, it feels very good to them. We feel very good about this price for the value that we deliver and the kind of one on one attention they get from us. We designed it as a roadmap so they can take the strategy and implement it. A lot of times it is our way of starting a project. In fact, it we make it mandatory. If someone comes to us and says, design our website, we have to do the brand audit. So yeah, that's basically it.
Liz: Okay. Yeah. I mean I think that's a good price point. For ads, absolutely. And as I said, yeah, I've seen coaches sell $3000 dollar courses, $5,000 you know, coaching programs, $10,000 mastermind. So yeah, you're, you're good with $1000, no problem.
Lauren: Great. Oh my gosh. We're like small fish compared to those guys.
Phil: Let’s hear the ads, I'm excited.
Lauren: Okay. So the people that we're targeting generally are successful. They're either established in their career, they know who they are in person, but they haven't quite translated that in person experience to online. So these are people who want to do more public speaking or who want to start their own company and leave the one that they're in now, they're doctors who want to get on TV or dentists who want to expand their practice. So with that in mind, this is the first ad I'm getting nervous. So the first one is starting off with do you wish people took you seriously? The moment you transitioned from being just a person to a person with a brand can be life changing with the right photos, the right logo, the right colors, the right messaging, the right website and the right marketing strategy, you can do literally anything you want. If you answered yes, then you should consider getting a brand audit from me, Phil Pallen. I've branded hundreds of individuals including some of the biggest names in entertainment and now it's your turn. In the audit, we'll spend 90 minutes talking about your goals and figuring out exactly how to get you where you want to be. Want people to take you seriously. Shop now.
Liz: Okay. I think it's really good. I think you've got a lot of emotional words in there. One question I want to ask you though is why do all of those things matter? Why having the right for sure, the right social, right fonts and colors all that that you've mentioned in the ad, why does that matter to the people you're talking to?
Lauren: It's a good question. I would say those are the elements that are necessary to succeed and live life and have a career that are on your terms.
Liz: So that's what I would bring out in the ad. I would focus and even go a layer deeper that so that so that they can do what? So rather than sort of, this is what I'm telling you you need to look at, and you thought, why would that be important? If you can describe how it might feel once they sorted that out in your ads, I think that will be even more powerful.
Phil: Mmmm.
Lauren: Fantastic.
Phil: That's really good feedback. Liz, you must do this for a living, Huh?
Liz: No, I just do it part time. See,I can’t write this stuff but I can dive into what can hopefully help make things stronger.
Phil: It's really good feedback and that role is super important because we're all too close to our own business is part white. You have a job. Why we have a job? Because we become that reflection for the other person to say, have you thought about this? Are what you just did, Lauren, but why that question? But why makes us think, you know? It helps you get closer to thinking like a customer, right?
Liz: Absolutely. And if you can play by what they would see why they want that. When you're doing your audit, you know what's important to you? What values would you want to bring out in this brand? What's really making them click, why does it matter? Because nobody gets up in the morning, says today I want to be branded. I feel like I need better photos. Why do they want those better photos? Is it because they're maybe they’ve got to turn a certain stage in life or feeling a little bit older needs to be found? The they look fuddy-duddy. Whatever it is is what is it? It's just not representing them. And why does that matter? If you can play that back in your ads and make it about them and how they're feeling rather than this is what I've got to give you, that will really hit the mark for them.
Phil: I love it. So I didn't mean to spring that on you to make you work for free on the phone. But I thought if we actually had an example, then we could actually talk specific about ads, which is something I love that you do. You talk specifics. So many, and this was my frustration of content live. I said a lot of Facebook experts are like these big high level claims, but we lack the tangible like, but how does this make sense? So that was really that exercise, accomplished what I wanted it to, which was lisc actually giving us feedback on what we could make better. So thank you for that Liz.
Liz: You're welcome. Thanks for putting me on the spot. But that was good fun.
Phil: Really good fun. How do you recommend people move forward? If they've listened to our conversation and they go, okay, I think I want to try these. Should they write their own ads? Would they then write them and then go to you and say, Liz, what do you think? Or do they write them with you? Do they call you after they've tried their own campaigns? What is the way in which people should move forward with this?
Liz: I think if someone's coming at this and thinking, I really would like to use Facebook ads for my business, I can see that you're the, they're almost a fast track way to reach more people. So if you're time-starved and you, you need that help, you've always got that trade off, you're going to have to spend money on paid traffic to reach people faster and if you don't have it, this is right for you. Then I think a good place to start is to learn Facebook ads yourself and that doesn't necessarily mean taking a course and paying for that. Facebook have their own training course Blueprint, which is a fantastic free resource, but if you have someone that you trust, and you want to take the course, then I would encourage everyone to do that. And not view it as an expense for taking a course because actually what that might save you in terms of lost fees, but all the mistakes you're going to make, and you will make them, when you're trying to learn Facebook ads on the job so to speak. Then it's worth doing and it's worth understanding the basics of what you're looking at, what you're monitoring, how to structure the ads. That will make your ads much better and you will see results. I think it's people that fast track that and want to just kind of do a little bit here, a little bit there. I'll just try and swing it together. Hope it works. It generally doesn't. So learn it first and I think when it comes to writing your own messages, I would definitely try that first because you understand your customer, you need to understand what they want and you need to be able to play that back in the messaging. Because even if you take that to a copywriter, they are going to ask you the same questions for them to write it for you.
They're going to need that guidance from you on who it is you're rating it for. So it's a good idea to be able to draft that yourself. And then if you need help as you did, just there, someone to look at it and maybe make suggestions what might make it better, then go and find somebody to do that. So I think that is a good first step is just to learn it. Then try your hand at writing the message yourself and then when you're confident that you can go into ads manager and run your ad, just do it, you know, test things out, see what works for you. And a lot of the time I see people go and go, oh, so and so has said I should run my ads exactly this way with this strategy. Set them up in this sequencing and I should I do that? Well, I don't know because it's going to depend on your business and what you want to happen. Don't be afraid to go in there and test things out but have the knowledge on what you're doing first.
Phil: Beautiful. You've given such good advice in this half hour and I so appreciate it. We're all fired up, Lauren, we're actually gonna try these ads and see what we need to do.
Lauren: Yes I need to rewrite.
Phil: Thank you Liz for being a wonderful authority in this space. Prior to meeting you, if you would have never said, would you have someone on your podcast to talk about Facebook ads? I'd be like, no but literally you've changed the game for me. So I just love how, I just love your approach, the way you talk about this and how you're so results oriented. You're not a smoke blower, it's just, I just liked that about you. It's just great. So thank you.
Liz: Oh, thank you Phil. It really means a lot that you said that. I tell more people to not do Facebook ads than I tell to do them purely because I don’t want to see anyone lose money on them and I think it is an expense. You want your money back, you've got the practical data and you've gotta know what you're doing. But it's been wonderful to talk to yourself and Laura, thank you so much for having me on.
Phil: Thank you. We're going to get to finishing our drafts and running a campaign and then we'll be calling you in an emergency next week. So just prepare yourself for that. Okay.
Liz: I'll be ready and waiting.
Phil: Thank you Liz. We'll chat with you soon.
Liz: Thank you.
Phil: Honestly, when I knew we wanted to get Liz on this podcast, I just knew, but I can't even tell you how much I want to work with her. We're going to hire her to help us.
Lauren: Yes. My favorite types of authorities are people who, number one admit that they don't have all the answers and number two really make the most thoughtful and sustainable decisions for their clients. Like she's right. Not everyone can run Facebook ads, you will lose money if you aren't prepared in the right way for it. So I just like appreciated her honesty, you know?
Phil: I think she's really, really good at what she does and I love that. What she left with us is super tangible and again came into it and was just like, you know, here are the facts. It might work for you. It might not.
So thank you Liz for your time and for letting me put you on the spot without telling you. But honestly I just thought actually going through the motions of actually looking at an ad, would help to understand the mechanics of it. That's all.
Lauren: Definitely. I found it very useful.
Lauren: Yeah.
Phil: What did you think, I want to know you who've been listening to this podcast for a few minutes. What did you think? Let us know. I'm @philpallen
Lauren: And I'm @thelaurenmoore
Phil: and #brandtherapy to continue this conversation. We'd love to hear if you've tried Facebook ads and it's worked or maybe it hasn't worked. Now you know Liz, lizmelville.com and I know Liz is also very active on Facebook. Makes sense. So definitely follow and engage with her and if you've enjoyed this conversation, you know now that we have experts on the show, that's new for us. Be sure to leave a review, preferably five stars and that'll be great. Yeah, that's, that helps other people find this podcast. So we appreciate you taking the time. Time is valuable, so we appreciate you taking the time to hang out with us on Brand Therapy and
Lauren: Bye
Phil: And we'll see you back next episode.
