81. How do you post engaging content on LinkedIn? (f. Catherine Gladwyn)
Can you be entertaining on LinkedIn? 💼Hosts Phil and Lauren went to the funniest content creator they know, Catherine Gladwyn, for the answer. Catherine is a business owner, author, and brilliant LinkedIn user, and in this episode she shares her secrets to building an avid following and community. For anyone who's looking to spice up their LinkedIn presence, this discussion is for you!
This episode is sponsored by Hero Cosmetics .
Episode transcription
Phil
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Phil:
Well hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
And this is the podcast where we explore how to position, build, and promote your brand and boy Are you in for a treat one of my absolute and I'm not exaggerating, one of my absolute favorite humans on the earth and favorite content creators online.
Lauren:
I was gonna say our first return guest yes Catherine has been on our podcast before.
Phil:
There's so many layers to this onion. Oh my god. Catherine has been on the podcast before as a guest. She's returning as an expert, one of my favorite content creators in the universe is Catherine. And you are here. Catherine, glad that you are literally here and I'm so happy you're here. You're here as an expert today. Are you ready for that?
Catherine:
First of all, I'm very excited actually. Yeah, I've been looking forward to it all the week. And when you invited me to book as an expert for the podcast, I literally booked it before your email even settled in my inbox. It was like oh my god, I'm getting this before he says oh sorry, sent to the wrong Catherine or something like that.
Phil:
Literally, I go over to LinkedIn pretty much just to read whatever you've posted that day. I mean, LinkedIn is for me, I like it, but you make it better, because you just, I don't know how you do it. But you show up so consistently online, and you always make me belly laugh. I mean, literally, that's you. That's the role that you play in my life. First question, how do you feel about that?
Catherine:
I love it. I love that I make you laugh. You know, that's what I want to do a lot of the time. I'm an only child so I want attention. And if I can make people laugh, it makes me laugh. It makes me happy. But it's fantastic. And I think as well, it's so important to follow people on LinkedIn or connect with people on LinkedIn that do make you laugh, because it gets rid of the boredom, doesn't it? You find?
Phil:
I do. I do find that I think I'm particularly fascinated with how you're able to translate your humor on a platform like LinkedIn. How do you take ideas from here and get them here? You know what I mean? Because it's one thing to have a conversation with someone and tell a joke and make them laugh. But I think the minute that we have technology between you and me, it becomes a little trickier, but you do it effortlessly. How do you do that?
Catherine:
I don't know. Well, I'm just going on how I am right at the moment. So I don't intentionally try to make people laugh, but I do write as I speak. So it is kind of loose. It is just, it is a complete brain dump. I had an imaginary friend when I was two called Graham. And I think it all stems from there in this wild imagination. And I love and I wish I've only sort of understood this probably since being a business owner, but I love that there is always somebody out there just like you or gets you. And I think sometimes I test it, you know, and I'll put something weird out there that my brain is thinking that there's always somebody that will come back and go, Oh my God. Yeah, I agree, or I was thinking exactly the same or I went through that the other week. And that even though that's not business speak, it then attracts people just like you that get you. And then they convert into fantastic clients if they want to be clients, don't they? So it's more like brain dumps. It's just what's going on in my brain, Phil, and nobody's really understood that for 43 years.
Lauren:
Okay, I have a question because I am also connected with you on LinkedIn. And I also love, love your content. Phil mentioned that you've got big communities also on Facebook that you've been retweeted, like 600 times on Twitter. So I was wondering if you could kind of walk us through your content process. Where do you get your ideas? Where do you write them down? If you do write them down at all? What systems do you use to make it happen? How far ahead do you how far ahead and yeah, all that.
Catherine:
So one thing and this is a tip, I run a VA membership and this is what I share with them. I list all of my services and everything that I do in a spreadsheet. She's old school spreadsheet with it all you know, so I put MailChimp, bookkeeping, VA mentor, things like that and put tips underneath each one and they could be really little tips. So I could maybe do a MailChimp tip, did you know you don't have to pay for an account, you can just get rid of your own subscribers or something like that, you know. That's just one little tip.
And then what I do is I put that out again and again and again, using Meet Edgar is the system. But a lot of content I use for a lot of my content are just tips about what services I offer. So it's sharing my knowledge and my expertise that way. I've got a big bank of blog posts, so they go out again and again and again. I also do some YouTube videos, and I'm building those up slowly, and I share my testimonials as well. So all of that is scheduled, and then the brain dumps are just done in bed in the morning. And none of that is ever scheduled. That's always just done there and then and I don't really know where it comes from.
But it's taken time. I mean, this is recorded around the time that the UK is in lockdown. The US is in lockdown. Lauren, I was talking to you you're in lockdown because of Coronavirus and I think if it's taught me anything, it's that there is you know, almost a 50/50 divide with anything. So I love that when I put something out I will find people that resonate with what I'm putting and they will have a laugh with me but equally it helps to know that best perhaps 50% are going to argue with me and mansplain something or woman's plain something or you know, and try and start a fight and that helps to get rid of those people in your mind as well.
Phil:
How do you not get too derailed from those people that want to comment that want to fight that wanna like, we call them keyboard warriors. I've heard them called you know, like, how do you not let that derail you during the day from your work?
Catherine:
do. But I try and make sure that I reply to everybody, or at least like their comment if it gets a bit too busy. And some people say, well, you can't be busy if you're doing that. But that's what encourages more people to reply to me. And I will also reply to the trolls as well, you know, you can call them trolls, they're just people with a different opinion, aren't they? And I will more often than not try and outsmart them, not through intelligence, just through smart words, you know, and maybe being a bit cocky.
But I do need to step back from doing that and I do need to grow up a little bit. Because, you know, while it's fun, it's also antagonistic for people.
Phil:
But at the same time, as you said, I think people know that you're so reliable when it comes to replying and engaging that I think that encourages engagement, which more engagement means more visibility on your posts, which means you staying on the radars have more people, which is kind of part of the goal and that's why you prioritize that which I think makes sense.
Catherine:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Lauren:
So Have there been any posts recently you can think of that you posted, and were very controversial, did summon the trolls? And so tell us about them? And also let us know if you would do it again, retrospectively.
Catherine:
You know, the reason I'm thinking is because there's probably been a lot and I'm choosing. I want to see if I've done something like that, but there's probably a 99.9% chance I have, and I would absolutely do it again. I don't go out there to wind people up. Not always anyway, but sometimes you do just rile people but again, it's that 50/50 thing, isn't it? But some people will agree with you. Sometimes I come with it more often than not, it's in my comments on other people's posts that wind people up because I share my opinion on something and it often doesn't resonate with the person that's originally posted.
You know, people start these posts, what do you think bla bla bla bla bla I'll go and put my comment about what I think then they're like, oh, how dare you disagree with me get into an argument. So yeah, we do it again. Again and again and again.
Lauren:
So how often do you comment on other people's posts?
Catherine:
I'm probably commenting on at least on two different people's posts a day, sometimes more depending whether the content is okay. If it's, you know, one, it's a really popular Awareness Day, then the posts, you know, if it's cat Awareness Day or something, then the posts don't interest me. And I wouldn't comment on anything. But if it's something that interests me, whether it's business or personal, then I do like to comment and have a conversation.
Lauren:
Interesting. And do you find, you get potential clients or members from doing that?
Catherine:
Yeah, absolutely. It's, the busiest platform for my clients or potential clients to come to me. The conversations will often start if they come over to email, it will often start. I've seen you on LinkedIn or I've been following you on LinkedIn for a while. Just this week, I had somebody say they need to get to grips with MailChimp can we go on a call so that I can show them how to use it? And I thought, well, I can't just jump on a call, I charge for those. So I suggest she’ll book a Power Hour, booked it straight like that. I've never heard from it before, It just three messages, and they booked a Power Hour with me. So I'm going to say, and it used to be Facebook, where I'd get all of my clients but it is LinkedIn now. Apologies Phil. I can see I'm waffling on.
Phil:
No, there's a few interesting things to unpack in what you just said, and I'm really excited. So one that I want to get to in a second is that that graceful transition to “I don't work for free, hire me, honey.” Let's unpack that in just a second. But you made a very interesting point, even if you didn't realize that you did this. But for people that struggle with content creation, putting out their own content. I never thought of it this way until you just framed it. But rather than being so focused on what you post on LinkedIn, rather than just being focused on that maybe you post on LinkedIn a few times a week if you're just getting started, but make a point of commenting on other people's posts almost as like training wheels for content creation. Because I'll be honest, I see almost every comment that you make on other people's posts, people that I'm not even connected with or know, but LinkedIn is still in the way that it's structured, its algorithm is still serving because I engage with you so often, and we get into trouble. You know, people serve me what you post on other people's content. So that isn't that interesting.
Lauren, what an interesting training wheels approach to content creation rather than being so focused on what you're broadcasting. Actually, first start by commenting on other people's content.
Catherine:
Absolutely. And I suppose I just threw that out there and didn't actually think about it. But I do say that to the VA’s that I train, but if you're, you know, a lot of them have got this fear of social media. And I say just spend 10 minutes a day commenting on other people's posts until you find your voice and you know, you're not going to say something that means the paparazzi are going to be outside your front door and you're gonna be splashed all over the British tabloids or anything like that. But yeah, commenting on other people's things, but also likewise, make sure you comment, you're not commenting on competitors stuff. Because otherwise you're going to highlight, that, to your audience. So if I kept commenting on every virtual system that does exactly what I do feel you'd keep seeing those in your feed, wouldn't you? And it would, actually play up to my competitors.
Phil:
Yeah, that's a really good point. Let's go back to this moment where someone, a stranger reaches out to you and says, I need help with MailChimp. They might think because you're so approachable on social media, you'll just quickly give them five minutes to pick your brain or now virtually since we can't you know, let's have a coffee. Can I take you out for lunch? Yeah. Now it's like, actually, I think being virtual. As you mentioned, at the time of recording this, we're all self quarantine. It's actually better to create that distance of kindness kind of respect me and what I do professionally, how do you navigate that you mentioned that kind of graceful what I call graceful little transition into hire me. Can you explore that a bit further on how you handle those?
Catherine:
Sure. So the message this week was much like a lot of the messages come through and it's this lady in particular wanted help with understanding MailChimp. So the message was, I've got a MailChimp account, I really need to know how to use it. Have you got five minutes to show me? Or could we jump on a call so you can show me? And my reply was, of course. What you're asking, I can absolutely do so straight away. It was a yes, please book a call here. And then I link to my calendly I use and that's connected with stripe. So as soon as she hits that button, she can see that it's a paid for service. In this instance, I also gave her a link also explained exactly what the Power Hours do so that she knew it was for her. And she booked it straight away and we're speaking next Friday.
Phil:
That's great.
Lauren:
Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like as people who are in the client service business, all too often I find myself feeling like I need to make excuses for why I can't do the 15 minute free call. And I feel like, like the sort of guests and mentality that you're talking about is just a really good way to not feel guilty or not showcase that you're feeling any sort of guilt or doing something wrong by charging for our call.
Catherine:
Yeah, I did. I mean, I'll give you an example. It doesn't always convert, because I think it's good for me to mention that it's not always positive. But I had somebody get in touch that was interested in being a VA, she lives near me, and she got in touch and said, I wondered if we could meet for coffee because I've got loads of questions about starting my own business. And I thought, well, what's in it for me? You know, you're not even offering to buy the coffee. And I don't do face to face anyway, because it's it's a pallava. So I replied and said, yeah, of course, book your call here. Or you could buy a copy of my book. Because I can direct people to my book. She never booked a call. I never got a thank you never got a reply or anything so you know they don't always convert. But I'm happy because there's no way I'm meeting for coffee when I've got work to do every hour is your hourly rate is what I say to people so the coffee is not my hourly rate.
Phil:
Right? We completely agree people wonder why Phil Why are you always traveling? Not, Phil how are you feeling? Where are you? All Be honest. It's like I love being away from being forced into human interaction. Lauren hated it for a few months because she was in LA. Now she's back in Vancouver, but when she was in LA, and we had LA clients that love meeting in person. Oh, let's go for lunch, let's go for dinner, let's have a coffee. Let's have avocado toast that's gluten free. And I'd be, Lauren, can you meet this person? She did it a few times. But then I said no. Because it's like okay, it takes me half an hour to get ready do my makeup and hair. It takes me an hour and a half in LA at best to get wherever they want me to meet them because no one will ever come meet you never meet me and then you have less control over monitoring the time in person because you can't be like oh hours up gotta go. You can't just hang up like on a zoom call and then it's another two hours back and then my whole day is gone. I'm exhausted. I can't do any other work because I'm too tired. Yeah, at least for me.
Catherine:
Talking is exhausting. It really is. It is exhausting. So doing an hour's course why I charge for it because I don't need to sit down I'm 43 now and then need to sit down after I've done an hour's call. But Phil you just you reminded me you asked earlier in the recording whether my debit put like a bomb post out that wound everybody up and it reminded me of one where I put about giving your time for free that you shouldn't. And all these mini Mother Teresa's came on and argued with me but you know it highlighted all of those people that would never appreciate what I'm worth. So that sounds a bit like supermodels in it all get out of bed.
Phil:
But well, it's about framing it in a way I think that's productive as a business owner as a content creator for a long time, I was upset by people that would unsubscribe from my email newsletter. And now I'm actually happy when I see people. I mean, I'd say if there's a large number of unsubscribes I think, okay, maybe I overstepped in some way. However, when there's, you know, I get probably on average between maybe six and 12 people per email. And I'm actually now of the mindset where I celebrate the fact that they're gone, because I don't want those people consuming what we work really hard to create, essentially give away. So it's all about mindset, isn't it?
Catherine:
Absolutely. It still hurts. For some reason, it started emailing me every time somebody unsubscribes and it was One this morning and I thought, oh, oh, you know, I've not even sent an email.
Phil:
What made you prioritize that today on your to do list, right? I know you have to turn off the emails, turn them off. The other thing too is that even if someone unsubscribes it's not because they don't like you, it's because they've signed up to your list with two emails. So that's another excuse that I use for if the numbers high. You see how I'm dealing with this?
Catherine:
Yeah. I might be a Mailchimp therapist.
Phil:
Yeah, there's your new title.
Phil:
Time for a little break so we can tell you about our sponsor this week. Our sponsor is savethechildren.org.
Lauren:
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Phil:
Go to www.savethechildern.org/savekids to learn more. And now back to our conversation with Catherine.
Phil:
Catherine I have some questions about your pipeline and your overall sales process. So this is something that we've been spending a lot of time on recently is like converting over to proper CRM, dislike really nailing down what those steps are when someone wants to work with us. And I've been doing a lot of research too and it feels like everyone kind of has an opinion of what is and isn't a good sales process. So I'm just curious to know like, Do you have one? Do you have a way that you store leads? Are you more like us like free flowing?
Catherine:
I'm kind of free flowing. I think more than anything, I do have different folders in my inbox. So if somebody replies to one of my newsletters, I pop it in a communication folder, it's labeled communication. And then sometimes I might go back to those people if I've got a specific offer that's relevant to something that we've discussed. But no, there's not really any sales process.
I've got my sales funnel if you like, because I have got two arms to my business. I'm a VA as you know, and a VA trainer as you know, and with the VA training bit, I've got my book ‘How to be a VA’ so that usually begins the sales process, but I don't document it anywhere because the books now sold on Amazon. I don't see who's buying it anyway.
Lauren:
Right. Interesting. I also wanted to know, you mentioned that you're really big on your blog and that you've also got sort of like those steady posts on Edgar that are always going out. Do you put that in your calendar to plan it out is or like, do you have dedicated writing time or do are you again, free flowing do it when you feel like it?
Catherine:
I've always got the spreadsheets open. And I've always got me Edgar open and even though I'll put it in Meet Edgar I'll also duplicate it in my spreadsheet in case what I lost one of them if Meet Edgar suddenly went bust or something, you know, and I lost everything. But it's more when I get an idea. I will chuck it in the spreadsheet and in the Edgar. Yesterday, I came up with a blog post that wasn't planned. It was just relevant to the world today as it stands, and yeah, there's not really much planning going on there.
Lauren:
Love it.
Phil:
I love it too. In fact, a lot of my favorite content creators are people that are not super deep into systems and automations and stuff and I like that stuff. But a lot of times I feel that I get too deep into things where it prevents me from, for example, finishing my content Doc, my Google Doc that Lauren's like, can you please finish this? And I'm like, oh, it needs to look nice. I need to like, you know, it needs to be branded. And I'm literally one hour later fussing with the header layout. I get too hung up on systems and automations to the point where I have to remind myself that honestly, sometimes it's about being in the moment, you still should be disciplined, like, you've got 15 minutes to spend on that. Spend it appropriately. Spend your time on social media as a marketer, not as a consumer as another thing I remind myself.
Catherine:
Yeah, brilliant. Absolutely. I think if I did have a plan, and I went against that plan, it stressed me out too much. So I'm happy that I do dedicate enough time to social media and to my content creation. If I felt that I was failing at any time, I would create a plan for myself, because I know how important it is to be consistent online. So I took three months off at the end of 2019, beginning of 2020, and my content was still going out there. I was still writing blog posts as well. So it's important to keep going. It's true.
Phil:
You mentioned that and I knew that you had time off because you've had some really big health challenges. And actually, you were still there. You were still online. I know you took time off, but I still I didn't even really notice that you were gone. You know, I knew you were because you’d send updates and everyone was obviously wishing you well, well, maybe not the trolls but everyone else was. And but that's actually really cool is to think so for example, if there's going to be time where you're off or you could just be organized to have that bank, even if it's a classic spreadsheet, like how classic is that. Keep it simple and just work from a spreadsheet and stay organized and make life a little bit easier for yourself as you try to exist in real life and also exist online. It's about keeping those two experiences consistent.
Catherine:
Absolutely. And just always remember that you always start from zero. So if you've got no content, don't think, oh, there's no point, I've got nothing to put out there. We all start from zero, and we can build it up. And then our tone of voice maybe changes a little bit as we get more confident with using social media, and then our whole content changes. You know, if I was to refer back to some blog post I wrote back in 2015/2016, I fully cringed because I was trying to be something I'm not because I was still in the corporate world then. So if anybody is out there and hasn't yet even thought about creating content is fine. Start today. Just put one post out there or create one tip.
Phil:
I think you're proof of the power of being consistent and one of the reasons I wanted have this chat today is just because of how much you've grown. Since when you and I would have first met. I don't think you had the VA membership. There were a lot a lot of things you're doing now, you did not have the reach, then that you have now. And that is literally obviously hard work but hard work and consistency in terms of just showing up and being present and staying on people's radar. I think that's really cool. Do you think that now people from working at home? Do you think that things are going to change now in terms of people being forced to work from home? Do you think companies are going to be a little bit more lenient now with letting their employees work from home realizing that actually you can be really productive?
Catherine:
Yeah, I really do think so. And I think it's going to save businesses all around the world so much money, because they're not going to need premises and also time because you have these chats when you work in a in an office, ‘so how was your weekend’ and you didn’t even care so that drove me mental. Yeah, and oh, nobody's emptied the dishwasher. So it's just that you're much more productive when you're not around people, there's it's obviously, for those that whose only conversation is work. You know, I feel sorry for those that are home at the moment because as I said, we're in the middle of the Coronavirus pandemic.
But I think a lot of businesses will perhaps stick to this. I also think it's going to be great for the VA world, because you could work with a sad Hawk instead of having us on paye, English for employee.
Phil:
Yes I think you're totally right, Obviously, our businesses may potentially evolve from this. But if there were ever three people that weren't painfully affected by what's happening in the world, it's these three that you're looking at that you're listening to right here. I think there's a lot of lessons there. My Instagram post that goes out today is about, manage your time. I'm not going to tell you what to do with your time. You can watch Netflix and eat Oreos, and that's fine if that's what you need right now. But you could also be building something to show for your passion to show for yourself that you're in complete control of which is what I'm doing. You know, I'm not like less busy, if anything, were more busy. And I'm grateful, and I appreciate it.
I'm also helping a lot of people that don't have resources right now, necessarily, but I think it's a wake up call that you can build something that you're in control of, you can work remotely, you can be just as productive if not more productive at home than at work. I think it's going to be an interesting time. We'll see what happens.
Catherine:
Absolutely. I think it's a money saver as well for so many businesses.
Lauren:
Yeah, I had one more question. I wanted to ask you, but I have a feeling. I know what the answer is going to be. But it's good anyways. Okay, so how often do you let the analytics or performance of your posts affect what you post in the future?
Catherine:
Never. Ignore it, but it could be subconscious. Maybe subconsciously I am taking it in and thinking, okay, that caused a lot of aggro and I'm not in the mood for aggro today so I won't post something that's going to get a lot of people fed up you know an angry. So today on LinkedIn I've posted that I've positioned my desk at my front window so that I can keep an eye on the neighbors. I'm like a little mini police enforcement officers out here. And I knew that that would be perhaps fun for people and people could probably relate to it. It's not gonna necessarily wind people up so yeah, I probably think about it a little bit. I know who my audience are, I can tell you their age range, I can tell you what sex I hit most of the time and you know, can tell you where they're located but I'm not looking at my reach or how many people like me or or anything like that.
Lauren:
All instinct.
Phil:
Yeah, all instinct and I think knowing your audience is what you lead with, and that's more important than anything else. People get so caught up in themselves. And here's what I want to say, you know, I want to put this message out. Well, no one really cares about your message. You need to think way more about your audience and what they want, and pair your perspective with what they want.
And I think what you do so well as you don't take yourself too seriously. So that's the personality component that makes what you say, different from if someone was to say the same thing, they would say differently. But your personality is your secret weapon online. That's what keeps people coming back to you for that information.
Catherine:
I'm also very honest. So just recently, I was I've been told I'm a finalist in an award for Best Collaborator. But I nominated myself. So I put on the post that I nominated myself, but the judges chose me as a finalist because you get people that come on and they'll go, Oh, my God, I can't believe we've been nominated for this award and you think I know damn well, that you nominated yourself. I'll always be honest in my posts. And I think that kind of makes people go oh, you know?
Phil:
Yeah, I love that because it’s super relatable. We're all trying to build our businesses and our brands and win awards, and I think people appreciate that kind of honesty.
Lauren:
And they want to work with someone who's honest.
Catherine:
Of course. I've never thought about that. But yeah, I'd hate to be called out, I would just be so embarrassed. And so yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Phil:
I think it's a good example of how each one of these small actions have a compounding effect, right, the way people experience your brand is not based on what you post on LinkedIn today, it's based on what you've been posting for the last year and how you've been showing up consistently. You're a really good example of that because I could pretty much cover up your profile photo and your name, and still no the post is from you. And that's because you're consistent and you're true to your personality.
Catherine:
And I put commas in all the wrong places.
Phil:
haven't noticed that one. So don't worry, I'm more just focused on what's the joke today and what's gonna make me belly laugh. I have loved this little conversation, our little virtual conversation, you know, the three of us all working away at home, self quarantined, but being productive but not being productive without also having a laugh.
Catherine:
Oh, absolutely.
Phil:
We've talked about content creation, we've talked about pricing and making sure you're not giving your work away for free, the future of at home working, what a fun little conversation.
Catherine:
It is so lovely to talk to you. I've not had the opportunity to meet Lauren face to face before but we've done our podcast before but not in real life. I've not met you in real life, but I've had the opportunity to meet Phil in real life. But every time I'm with you like all three of us together, I just want to stay on Want to get another cup of tea and we have a chat over biscuits. And if you want to work with these two, you've got to do it.
Phil:
You're so kind. What we'll do at the time of publishing this episode, Catherine, we will go live on LinkedIn, which is your, you know, your platform where you show up so well. And then on that broadcast, we'll try and tease people into listening to this episode, because there's lots of good little nuggets in here. So just look forward to that, okay. And if you're listening to this episode, know that we will either be live now or we will have been live around the time of publishing this. So go and check that out for some more laughs. So there, we have something to look forward to.
Catherine:
The neighbours just gone and got through again. I just need to mark that on my on my list.
Lauren:
Are you gonna report them or yell at them and be like, get back inside?
Catherine:
Yeah, well, if there's a fifth time, then I'm gonna have to go out and have a word.
Lauren:
t's the same neighbors?
Catherine:
Yes. I’m only joking though Lauren!
Phil:
Catherine, thank you for joining us again on Brand Therapy and for sharing your insights today.
Catherine:
Not at all. I am so pleased you asked me. Thank you so much. Both of you. Thank you.
