85. How do you network? (f. Kylie Hodges)
What's the secret to connecting with someone? 🔗 In this very exciting episode, hosts Phil and Lauren interview Kylie Hodges, a networking expert, about cultivating authentic relationships. Often coaching introverts, Kylie breaks down her methods for being memorable, following up, and building genuine connections. This is one of our favorite Brand Therapy episodes ever, and we're excited for you to learn from Kylie!
This episode is sponsored by LetsGetChecked.
Episode transcription
Phil
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Phil:
Hello, hello. Welcome to Brand Therapy, the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand? I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
And we are so happy you're here today. I say it every time but this is a great episode. For those of you that want to sharpen your sales skills, wouldn't you say like networking and sales, but it's? I don't know, I think it's kind of both of those things.
Lauren:
Well, I'm gonna disagree with you. I don't think it's about sales. I think this episode is about connecting with people.
Phil:
Fine. Connecting with people is the bridge between those two things. But I think sales is an ugly, scary word for a lot of people including me and the reason I associate it with our guest today, Kylie is because she has such a happy, positive productive outlook on this. So yes, connecting with people but I would say if sales is something you want to work on it, it's something all of us need, this is a good episode for you. She teaches some really fundamental concepts on connecting with people as they relate to, yes, networking and building your business and selling yourself.
Lauren:
We don't really get into hardcore sales on this episode because I think before you can sell, you need to know how to engage. And Kylie is such an expert at really building meaningful connections with people and taking out the awkwardness of follow ups, which really ultimately positions you for successful sales in the future. So I loved it. Honestly, one of my favorite episodes we've ever done, hands down.
Phil:
Hands down. The minute we finished this chat, we said, okay, that was amazing. That was what we said, Kylie's awesome. I feel we should just get right to it, don't you?
Lauren:
Yeah.
Phil:
Okay, so here is our conversation with Kylie.
Phil:
Promote, promote, promote your brand. Why did I say promote three times, I'm going to tell you why I said it three times. Our guest today is a great friend of mine, someone who I really admire as really focusing on that third stage that we talked about. You know Lauren, we talk lot about positioning your brand. We talk about building your brand. When we first launched this podcast, we would take questions from people and we would get the same questions over again, which is why we changed the format. How do I position my brand? How do I build something to show for it? How do I sell it? And so as we think about this final stage promotion, Kylie Hodges comes to mind. And it was just recently that I saw her tagged in a photo on social media with Sophie Amoruso, who reached out to her to collaborate on an event. Kylie knows networking relationship building. We have an expert on this topic on our podcast right now.
Welcome to Brand Therapy Kylie.
Kylie:
Wow, thank you so much. Hi, I'm so happy to be here.
Phil:
Let's start with this idea that I think people are really, I don't know, they either decide they're terrible at it. You know, I'm not good at selling my business. I'm not good at networking. I could be better at building relationships, staying on people's radar. I just feel like generally you have a great mindset about this and a really positive outlook on this. So let's just dive into it. What are some of those challenges that people have? Sometimes they're probably their own worst enemy, right?
Kylie:
Absolutely. You know, I call myself a networking coach, but really what that boils down to is sales. Networking is the tip of the iceberg for whatever you want in life. Truly, whether you're a business owner or somebody just looking for another job. Relationships are the root of what gives you access to something that you don't already have. And so a lot of common questions that I get, funny enough are around branding.
People don't realize that it's important to position themselves in a certain way when they're interacting with people, that they are their own brand ambassador and their own spokesperson. And they don't realize that there is a very simple way to be strategic about it, while simultaneously just being your authentic self. And it's all about being clear and concise in how you present yourself, even in casual conversations. So that is the biggest hang up people get is, oh, there's a process to this. It didn't even occur to them that there's a process and that's to my clients benefit because most people aren't being strategic with their engagements with other people.
Therefore, those who are strategic with networking are crushing it.
Lauren:
And so what do you mean by strategic with networking? Could you give an example of that?
Kylie:
Of course, well, the way I work with my clients is I have a five step system, for the five ways to win at networking, and it is you need to know your talking points. You need to know who you're looking for, who your target connection is, or your target clients. Same thing. You need to be strategic with where to find that person, you need to navigate the conversation with kindness, and you need to commit to the follow up.
And it sounds common sense, committing to the follow up is just making sure that you follow up with somebody in 48 hours. But people usually it's like, oh, I'll get to it when I get to it. But there's a reason that I tell people that you still have that magic of a conversation that you had with somebody lingering for about a day after you've met with them.
And so if you wait a week, you wait a month, that magic has gone and the relationship has fizzled, and there's not going to be a sense of urgency to stay connected.
Lauren:
Interesting.
Phil:
That's great. I like that you've broken it into a system because I think yeah, I mean systems that we talk about all the time on this because it's what help people thrive but it's cool that you kind of broke that down into actionable stabs.
Kylie:
Thank you. Yeah, it's easy to digest. And when you take common sense things and put it into simple easy steps, then that's the strategy. And that's the intention with how you're carrying yourself.
Lauren:
Okay? I have some selfish questions because out of the three of us on the call, I am the worst at networking, without question. So, I find generally, that if I'm meeting someone for the first time, and this may even just be my own mind, but I feel I'm not memorable. Even if I have a small conversation with someone, what holds me back from following up with them is I think, they're not gonna remember meeting me, which is embarrassing, but it's the truth.
Kylie:
That breaks my heart. You're not the only one to say that. Go ahead and finish your question.
Lauren:
What is your advice, I guess for being memorable in a conversation because I obviously have so many hang ups with this topic. I follow Dale Carnegie's rules, and I ask people tons and tons of questions about themselves so that they do all the talking and I don't. But at the same time, that's bad, because then they only remember talking about themselves and they don't know anything about me by the end of it. What's your advice for people being memorable and doing a follow up that isn't awkward?
Kylie:
Okay, well, first of all, you are memorable. That is such a beautiful question. I'm really glad you asked it because that is a big thing. A lot of people who come to me are introverts, and they feel overwhelmed and they're for some reason not good enough, it just being themselves and you are memorable. And what you're doing by asking everyone questions about themselves is something that I talked about. That's step four, kill it with kindness. The way to be memorable is to not take charge and navigate the conversation. But it's never about you, you should be doing a majority of the listening and asking questions because you need to treat networking like you're a detective. And every person you're engaging with, you're trying to figure out if they qualify as your target connection.
So brilliant work by asking them a lot of questions. And then the thing that I'm just hearing that's missing, is that there is a way to wrap it around so it comes back to you. Often times when people feel heard, so like when you're asking them a lot of questions, that in itself is memorable. Because people remember how you make them feel more than what you say. So if you made them feel heard, and you were very curious about them, that's going to make them feel special. Often times, it is a natural way to steer the conversation because eventually people will become self conscious that they're talking about themselves a lot. And they'll want to turn it on you and go, Oh, I've been talking too much. Tell me about you. So then you've teed yourself up.
But if that doesn't happen, you can listen for common denominators and what they're saying and go, Oh my gosh, me too. You know, it's funny. I'm actually a networking coach, and I see so many similarities in what you're saying about what you do and what I do. Suddenly, you have now taken the conversation and turned it and so they'll go, Oh, wait, tell me more what this is awesome.
So as far as navigating the conversation, I think that's you're off to a great start. As far as being memorable goes, you can't really control what people think about you, right? But you can do your best to present yourself in the best way. And so like I said earlier, leading the conversation by being curious and present and asking a lot of questions is the right way to go. On top of that, you have all people as a brand strategist probably have a kick ass brand statement.
And so having a sparkly beautiful concise and clear brand statement or I call it an elevator pitch, is that thing that will hook people in and really help them remember, oh, who is that person that had such a great conversation with me? Ah, yes, Lauren, I loved her brand statement, that does work.
And then when you commit to the follow up, that's the way to ensure that if you reach out to them after talking to them within 48 hours, it's more likely they'll remember you if you had that beautiful conversation where you were so curious about them, rather than if you were just somebody who was assertive, pushed a business card on them and walked away. That's not going to sit well and it won't be a good memory for them.
So this was a very long answer, but I just want to say that I think maybe you should give yourself a little more credit. You're probably doing a great job.
Lauren
Thanks, Kylie. So here's another question for you.
Phil:
Wait, wait before I get to the question, I just want to say something this is quiet as I've been for a long time because the question that Lauren asked is not something I struggle with. I very naturally, almost obsessively connect with the person. I don't care necessarily what they do. All I'm focused on is how can I almost like a chameleon bring myself to their level or to their world to be able to connect, and they can look at my website later and research me later. But just remember, wow, he was really kind, he was outrageous, he was memorable and never took himself too seriously. I was trying to connect on personality and I try to worry about someone's credentials or details or compatibility as a client, etc.
So wait, but as Kylie is talking Lauren, I want to know if you're also on the same page as me when Kylie introduces herself as a networking coach, I for one, hate the word networking even though I like it more because of Kylie's take on it, but the way that you just answered Lauren’s question to me reinforced that this is what you're meant to do. I actually think, not that we're trying to rebrand you right now, but I just have to get this out because I'm thinking about it. I feel like you're a business relationship coach.
You have such an amazing way of coaching people with business relationships. So whenever it comes time to evolve your brand, feel free to take that. Normally Lauren wants to come up with that but Lauren asked what she calls a very selfish question, but I think it's something that a lot of people need help with and you answered it really well. So if you ever need to evolve your own branding, I just came up with that because I feel like it's just so you. It's so positive. It's so you are a business relationship coach, a relationship coach, but for business, Lauren, what do you think about that?
Lauren:
I love that title. I love it. I think it's true because for me, networking, that word makes me want to throw up. I feel Kylie, your approach is so much deeper than simply a mass of contacts, you know?
Kylie:
Thank you. I love that. I've been very in my head about the name of my business for a while and what I call myself in that. I love that. I'm 100% gonna use that and credit you for it. Thank you so much.
Phil:
Love it. You go for it. I interrupted. Lauren, what was your question?
Lauren:
If I need to do the follow up within 48 hours, should the follow up have a call to action on it? What if I don't have anything more to talk to them about? Do I have to talk to them? If I just send the email and then don't talk to them for a year and a half? Or don't message them for a year and a half then like was there a point to that like that?
Kylie:
I get this question all the time. So don't think that you're an outlier here. It is a brilliant question. So I have a couple of answers. First to get clear on, why do you want to stay in touch with this person. If you don't know, then maybe no need to follow up. But otherwise, yes, it always encourages a call to action. And it's usually as simple as, do you have time available for a chat? Here's three dates and times that work for me.
You’ve got to be clear, and a bit aggressive with actually putting it on the calendar because I live in LA and everybody always loves to say we should do lunch, and then it never happens. So don't be that person. But also, sometimes I know that I just want to stay in touch with somebody and I'm not really sure why or what to do with them.
And I'm also a big adamant of, don't go on coffee dates because in Los Angeles traffic is a nightmare. You could spend an entire day getting to a coffee date. So have a virtual coffee date, have a phone call. And that can be a way to stay in touch easily. And if you don't know what to ask of them, and you're not sure you want to get on the phone yet, you just want to keep the conversation going.
I have filler questions that I will use in a follow up. And it's a question that is so easy for somebody to answer. They can do it if they're on their phone with one hand and brushing their teeth with the other. So for example, I would say like, Lauren, it was so great meeting you at happy hour last night. I'm Kylie, the tall, blonde business relationship coach who you just met. And I loved chatting with you in our conversation about branding. It was so interesting. Remind me what neighborhood you live in again.
There you go, like are so easy, they can respond so quickly. It's like they have to put no they don't have to put any brainpower into that question so they can easily answer it. And that buys you time. Just keep the conversation going and keep figuring out what is going to become of that relationship.
Phil:
Even if you already know the answer to the question.
Kylie:
Yeah, I usually ask questions that I already know the answer to.
Phil:
That is so smart, though. And I talk a lot about not talking down to your audience. And people don't ever try to do that on purpose. But they do it by accident. And that's the opposite. I think that's like meeting your audience at a level where you're respecting their time. I got a message, an Instagram dm this morning, someone's saying, ‘Hey, man, can you coach me for a few minutes? I am lost in my business.’ I was like, if someone's not gonna put five minutes into a thoughtful message to me asking me for help, what do I even do with that? I haven't done anything with that. It's still showing as a new message in my inbox, which is driving me insane. I just haven't decided but The example you just gave is like a perfect way to respect your audience's limited time. Are you a fan of CRMs? Or spreadsheets? How do you keep track of relationships?
Kylie:
So I have experience with Salesforce and all those big scary CRMs, but I don't use them personally. Because the people that I work with are usually zero to two years of their business. They don't have the money to shell out for CRM. So whatever your calendar or task management system that works for you is, utilize that with follow up.
So let's say today I'm coming home from a networking event. If I have a little bit of energy in me, I'll spend 30 minutes and I'll send out those quick follow up emails that are usually three sentences. And then I will go in my calendar, and I'll set a calendar alert for a week after I send that email to follow up if I haven't heard from them. And then if I send another one and I still don't hear from them, I'll schedule it two weeks to a month out because I don't want to come across as crazy as stalkery but I am genuinely curious why they're not responding.
So it can be just as simple as scheduling a task in my Google calendar or in your Asana or whatever, you just have to keep it rolling from the minute you start outreach, just set another calendar event if you reach out to them.
Phil:
Now hold up just a second. We're having a great little productive conversation here with our friend Kylie. This is the moment in the podcast where we take a little break and tell you about some stuff that we got cookin. Well, what do we have cookin?
Lauren:
Do you want me to prompt you about the course in the PPC kitchen?
Phil:
What you got brewing there, Lauren?
Lauren:
Well, I don't have anything brewing but you certainly do. You've got a course that everyone should purchase if they haven't already. Phil, can you tell us about the course?
Phil:
I'll tell you about this recipe honey buns! So this is my third and well final for now, addition to my mastery course collection. I started with Content Mastery, and then it was Email Mastery, and now it's Instagram Mastery. My course, the longest one yet the most comprehensive one yet took me 100 hours to make, will help you really master this platform. The it platform, we call it Instagram, everyone loves and prioritizes it. Well, not everyone, but most people. It helps you master this platform like a pro.
I always think about Instagram as four social media platforms, feed, stories, Live and IGTV. And I help and actually go into detail on each one of those verticals, helping you create, helping you perfect your strategy on those platforms and to give apps and tools and all kinds of things that help you do this efficiently.
My biggest pet peeve with courses is like yeah, sure, there's information online, sometimes It's free, but that doesn't make it better. A lot of times with courses, there's this assumption that you have all the time in the world to spend doing that course, and people don't finish. So my courses are designed to really create for busy people and to reiterate that your time is your most valuable commodity. So I'm going to try and not use too much of it. And we really distill it down to actionable tips that you can implement right away to grow. So that is Instagram Mastery.
Lauren:
A few questions for you. Number one, what kind of level of expertise do you need to have for this course?
Phil:
Good question. That's a good question. You can be a beginner or you can be advanced. I've got a few people in the course that are advanced instagramers that DM me and said, wow, even though I use this platform every single day, I learned a lot about how I can go live and use graphics. About how I can structure a live episode before I go live and make sure I don't over talk or lose the attention of my audience. What about ways to promote your igtv? One week prior and even a few days later, I give you a whole schedule on how to promote what you're creating and how to cross promote. So there's a lot of new concepts in here that are useful for beginners and for more advanced.
Lauren:
Okay, second question, and I'm going to make it the final question, do I have to take the course within a certain time period after I purchase?
Phil:
Oh, no honey buns, you have lifetime access. So once you buy it, you get an immediate login to teachable and you have lifetime access to that puppy. I recommend picking it up before the price goes up. And that way you have it and you can chip away at it. You want to know something cool. I don't know if I actually told you this, but a few people have told me that they've watched the course that they bought twice. The first time they watch it through to get the information the second time they watch it through to actually implement and I never thought of it that way. But that's kind of cool that people do that.
Lauren:
I love it, and you know what? Your description in this mid roll was so good that I am sold, and I hope everyone else is. Where can people buy the course?
Phil:
Buy the course on our website, use the promo code therapy50 to get 50% off, yeah, five zero to get 50% off the full price of this course. Normally it's $299 but you're gonna get it for just under 150 baby. There you go. Let's get back to our conversation with Kylie.
Lauren:
Say you talk with a potential client, and they say now's not a good time. Let's keep in touch, you know something vague. How soon would you follow up or touch base with them to see if it was a good time to work together, three months, six months. Do you have a system for that?
Kylie: First of all, that's a sales question, right? Because at this point, we've gotten past the networking, and now we're having conversations that are alluding to the fact that I'm trying to get clear on if we've had multiple conversations, and it's about how they could work with me, then something tells me that there's a block for them. They know that they need or want to work with me. and something is, generally fear is keeping them from that. And so, of course, I will respect somebody's answer. If I've had two sales calls with somebody or three, and they say now's not a good time. I would genuinely be like, okay, tell me what's going on. What's stopping you from making a change right now? Because it sounds to me like you get on the phone with me, you're very curious about what I do , what I have to say, what is stopping you from taking the leap?
So that's a little bit more of like a sales conversation.
Lauren: You're so brave.
Kylie: That's the thing about being a brilliant salesperson is you just have to be brave and bold and call it like it is in a kind and curious way. Because we all are blocking ourselves from something. If you know that you're the right fit for them, and they can see it too. You need to help them get out of their own way.
Phil: One of the things I struggle with is the specific phrasing of a follow up email, what I need to do is just like write myself a template and stick with it. But I often find myself going back to Lauren's emails on follow ups and trying to just take what she writes because she's better at them than me. Lauren's more of a natural writer, and I'm more of a presenter in this kind of format. Right?
Lauren: I need time to think.
Phil: I'm very bad at and I'm the opposite. I get in a moment of thought. And I'm then writing a follow up email, which takes me half an hour and it should take three minutes. So do you have any tips on specific phrasing on a follow up email? Like, obviously, if I was going to speak the truth, the truth is like, hey, just following up because I want you to hire me because I want you to pay me. And I want you as a client. I can't say that.
Kylie: Well, let's go a little deeper here. You didn't just start your business because you want money, right? Because you can get money in a million other ways. Why did you really start your business?
Phil: Yeah, I love what I do. And I had some tangible skills in both my undergrad and my master's degree where I learned wow, I really like this idea of branding. I like making visual things. I like making ugly things pretty. Honestly, that's kind of where it started from.
Kylie: So you that one of your like, core values probably is beauty and presence. And you translate that by helping people. So at your core, you are someone who wants to help people.
I often have to remind my clients that that is the approach here, right? We're, natural helpers. And we have to lead with that. If it's a good fit, and they become a client gravy, but if not, that's okay the right client is gonna come your way. And maybe it's just not a right fit.
Oh, the follow up email. That's what you're asking about. So, yes, 100% draft a template. And I break it up into three tiny paragraphs.
The first one is Hi. And basically a reintroduction of yourself. Assume that they're stupid and have never met you before, even though they just had a conversation with you. So I always say, hey, it's Kylie from the wing woman collective. It was so great meeting you last night at happy hour.
Then do one singular sentence doing a call back to something you discussed so that it reminds them that you really heard them and that you had a valuable conversation.
Then do a line break and I always say something like I would love to hear More about what you're up to. And then a line break. And the call to action isn't necessarily let's get on the phone, but more of I love to keep talking and see how I can support you. Maybe the most supportive thing is to not stay engaged with them after you have that phone call. But people really resonate with the idea of being helped and taken care of and supported. And that's what you do as a service based business. So it's very accurate to say, can I support you? Let's get on the phone and chat. So that's my process.
But absolutely, you can make that a template because you're really only customizing the first two ish sentences.
Phil: Can you tell us the five step process? Yeah, you've told us some of the numbers but you haven't told us all of the numbers in order. So tell us now about this five step process because I'm super interested to hear it.
Kylie: And I don't know if you share freebies with your audience that I have like a singular PDF I can share with you guys to share with your audience.
So, my five ways to win at networking are the following.
First step is, before you even leave the house, you have to get aligned with how you present yourself. I imagine you are the king and queen of that because it's basically creating your own elevator pitch or your brand statement. If you're looking for clients and your brand strategist, great, let's make a really crispy, delicious elevator pitch so that you know how you're going to present yourself and introduce yourself to people.
Step two is again before you leave the house, you need to get clear on who is that person you want to meet. So who is your target connection? And it's basically creating a client avatar. What are they afraid of? What are they excited by? What do they love? How much money do they make? What neighborhood do they live in? What's their job? And what are they willing to leave the house for? When you're very clear on who that person is that you're looking for? Then you know how to speak to them.
And then you know, step three, which is to think like your audience and go to the events where they are and not where you want to be. And I know that we're in an interesting time where a lot of all in person events have been canceled. But this very much translates to a digital space as well. For example, if you are a business coach, and you're looking for creative freelancers, you're probably not going to want to get on a tech in a tech CEO Facebook group connecting with people there, because you're not going to find those freelancers. As far as in person gatherings go so many people go to networking events just because it's close to their own house, or it's free, or there's free booze or something interests them in their own personal game. But is that something your target connection wants, because if not, then you're just wasting your time and do not leave the house in Los Angeles and waste your time. It's very easy to get stuck in traffic, that would be a nightmare.
Step four is to kill it with kindness. So now you know how to talk about yourself. know who you're looking for, know where to find them. And now you're in the conversation with somebody and I say you got it. To make sure that they leave the conversation feeling like you heard them, and they felt heard and comfortable and safe with you. It doesn't mean you need to be a therapist. But really, it's like what Lauren does, you should really be asking more questions and doing most of the listening in the conversation. So be kind and curious with every conversation you have. And that in itself will make you memorable.
And then step five, is to take the lead. So when you're wrapping up a conversation, you can be as simple as I'd love to stay in touch, what is the best way to stay in touch for you? That way, you're not just shelling out your business card and hoping that they'll send you an email, you're taking the lead and getting their info first. Because ultimately, you can trust yourself to follow up but you can't trust them to follow up with you. So once you get whatever info they're comfortable sharing, then you can volunteer your info as well. And then take the lead and commit to the follow up within 48 hours of meetings.
So those are the five steps. And when you can do that you are cultivating very valuable and solid relationships. And most likely, you're talking to less people, because this is really one on one engagement. But it's, it's easy to weed out who's a good fit and who isn't when you follow those steps.
Phil: I think they're really solid steps, honestly, thank you. They're awesome. really thorough. It takes all the guesswork away.
Kylie: That's the goal. People often times just network because they think they should. And so they're like, I guess I'm just gonna go to this happy hour tonight. But they're not putting any thought into it, and therefore, they're just wasting their time. So it's all really simple stuff. You just have to take a few moments and put some thought into it before you just go and do.
Lauren: Oh, this has been wonderful.
Phil: I have one more question. So when I talk to people and I even reflect on our own business, the number one source of clients would be referral or word of mouth. Do you have anything besides referral or word of mouth or other ways that your clients have had success that are kind of find an exciting to hear about? But even like everyone says, that's more important than social media. It's more important and everything and I agree, but in your position where you're providing structure for people, are there any interesting instances of not referral or word of mouth where people have led to client relationships or fruitful kinds of opportunities?
Kylie: Yes, well, first of all my thoughts on referrals are they're gravy, but they're nothing to invest a lot of time into because you have no control of referrals. Referrals happen when you give somebody a great service. So that should just be your go to with the way you serve your clients and trust that they will spread the good word of you after their experience with you.
My clients generally get their clients by being proactive and doing what I say, which is those five steps, and they're getting their clients. They don't just stumble upon clients. There's a lot of intention and strategy behind it.
My favorite story is I have a client who recently met a client in a bathroom, which is probably something that will happen to me someday as well. Women tend to chat a little more in bathrooms than men. And so they were chatting at a conference and they exchanged cards and wouldn’t you know it, now they are doing business with each other.
Lauren: Amazing.
Phil: I love it. How can people get more information on you Kylie, where can they go?
Kylie: Oh, well, I would love to stay in touch in any way that feels right for other people. You can find me on Instagram at KylieHodges. My website is wingwomancollective.com and shoot snail mail finds me. Let's stay in touch.
Phil: I love it. This has been really enlightening and really inspiring. It's like almost giving me permission again to spend time being proactive about relationship building and networking and we evolved your brand in the few minutes we spent together too.
Kylie: That was the best part for me. Thank you guys so much. What a treat, you're the best!
Phil: Thank you for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy. We appreciate you.
Kylie: I'm honored to be here. You guys are the best. Thank you so much for having me.
