88. How do you thrive in risky situations? (f. Marcus Eyers)
Are you someone who thrives in risky situations? 🚨Whether you do or don't, this episode is a must-listen for anyone who runs a business! Time flies in this informative Brand Therapy session, where you'll meet Marcus Eyers, a commercial pilot. As someone who knows what it's like to have a risky job (ahem, flying massive planes with 300+ people), Marcus knows how to thrive in uncertain conditions. He'll walk you through tips for staying organized, creating game plans for worst-case scenarios, and more!
This episode is sponsored by LetsGetChecked .
Episode transcription
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Well hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I’m Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brands. We're so happy you're here, you know, after what is it over 80 episodes, I think this is episode 88. We have a first, we don't often at first, right? Because that's a lot of episodes. But this is the first episode where you're primarily only gonna get one of us. And that one of us is the other one, miss Lauren Moore who does today's interview solo.
Lauren:
And if you don't like me, you should just stop the episode and pick it up next week.
Phil:
That's not true. No, it's not. I've had a solo episode, but this is gonna be your very first one. So even though I wasn't there to be there for this conversation, I think what was that? Why wasn't it there? I had a call about traveling. No, I wasn't traveling. I think I was doing a webinar. Was it?
Lauren:
Yeah, that was it.
Phil:
I was doing a webinar, and you guys have what I think today is a really timely important discussion on uncertainty. At least that's where it's gonna start. I love Marcus.
Lauren:
He's just the best.
Phil:
He is. And this is the right time to be having this conversation right? Him as a commercial pilot mitigating risk, calculating uncertainty, the chances of it what do you do? Right, so many people are in a position right now where things are uncertain. And so I feel like if I was going to trust anyone in a time of uncertainty, it would be Marcus. I could bring my greatest problems and challenges to him and he would help me sort those out. He's like the person to trust.
Lauren:
Yeah. So when the pandemic changed the world as we know it, the first person I thought of who came to my mind was Marcus, and I wanted to know what Marcus's perspective was on thriving. In times of uncertainty. Marcus is a commercial pilot, he flies gigantic planes around the world. He was formerly in the Royal Air Force. And if there's anyone who knows what to do in a high pressure situation, and ensure that you know what to do for future high pressure situations, that's Marcus. So we really get into how, as a business, no matter what industry you're in, you can be prepared to thrive in uncertainty and develop resilience. So that way your team knows exactly what to do when something goes wrong, because something will always go wrong.
Phil:
Right? It's not if it's gonna go wrong, it's when and Marcus is the best. He is the best. I love him in this discussion.
Lauren:
He's my favorite. I could talk to him all day.
Phil:
He's so kind and trustworthy.
Lauren:
I find that I’ll think of random things and be like oh I need to message Marcus about that. I was reading about how pilots will often see identifiable flying objects. And I was thinking, Oh, I should ask Marcus if he's ever seen a UFO flying while he's on his plane. So anyway, I feel like Marcus is just a treasure trove of information of experience. He's a delight. And so, while Phil, you're not in this episode, and the spark that you bring, isn't there, I certainly think that the information is. So I really hope people like this one.
Phil:
Oh I think they will. I mean, imagine the two of you together. I can imagine it.
Lauren:
Two nerds talking it out.
Phil:
Let's do it. Let's get right to it. Here is Lauren's conversation with Marcus.
Lauren:
Marcus, you are an expert in organization and in risk management. And so Phil and I thought you would be an amazing guest on our podcast for everyone to learn all of your knowledge, I think first off with the pandemic happening and a lot of uncertain things happening, like economically, a lot of people are thinking about risk in a way that they never have before. So I want to know, just to start things off, why do you think it's important for companies to prepare for risk management?
Marcus:
One of my friends put this in a brilliant way a few days ago, and he said, if you don't know the risks that you're taking as a company, you don't really know your own company. And I agree with him totally. And it's very similar to the analogy that he used was, it's like being blind. So you're walking forward with a blindfold on and your hands tied behind your back, you're essentially handicapped. You don't know where you're going. If you don't understand the risks you're taking, how can you be effective as an organization? How can you prepare for anything if you don't know where you're exposed? And I guess that's why you need to know.
Lauren:
What made you interested in risk management?
Marcus:
The industry that I work in, does its best to mitigate risk as much as possible, as do most organizations. But it's quite interesting in the way that people deal with not only risks, but all the elements that go into that. So how we deal with problem solving or mistakes. So risks, threats, errors, the way an organization is constructed, its culture, the people within it, how everybody interacts, is the people that I find interesting. But it's kind of what comes from those people. So risk is just another facet that is that plugs into everyday life. And it's quite interesting how we deal with it. And what we can learn to make ourselves better and the organizations that we work for. And, if we own a company, and we're running a company, we want to be as efficient as we can. And much like you and Phil, I'm trying to have a business of my own as well. And I want to understand the risks that I'm taking to be as good as I can be as an organization.
Lauren:
You and I have had a lot of conversations about risks, mistakes, especially while developing your company brand, and I don't think we've ever talked about this before. Have you all always been comfortable with the possibility of making mistakes?
Marcus:
We don't like mistakes, or at least we don't like to think we're fallible. We don't like to think we make mistakes. But we probably make 100 mistakes a day. The majority of which are minor, and we don't even notice that we're making. I might try to leave the front door and have to go back from my wallet, or the access card from my building or my car key or something entirely innocuous. We don't notice those mistakes. They happen all the time.
In our professional world, we like to think that we are good at what we do. And mistakes erode our perception of our own ability, our own standing with an organization. So mistakes are quite interesting. We make them. We should embrace the fact that they will occur, but it's what you do about those errors. That's the important bit, how do we mitigate that? And there's a whole process that goes into that and something called threat and error management, and how you identify where your risks are, and where you might make mistakes is quite important.
Lauren:
You know, none of us like to make mistakes, but it's important to realize that we do make mistakes and that there's actually an opportunity to improve, because of them. So when you're thinking about, like you just mentioned the threat and risk management, or identification, is that something you would recommend, a business owner do? For example, think, what if we don't have a restaurant owner? What if we don't have any customers in the next month, what do we do? Or what if there's an outbreak of salmonella, what do we do? Is that the kind of identification you mean?
Marcus:
So you should, as a business owner, identify the things that will threaten your business, where you are taking risks, where you are likely to be exposed. And thinking about these elements is the first step. If you haven't thought about it, then you will never know. But also you've got people within your organization who are in a restaurant, they're working in the kitchen, they're working on the restaurant floor. They see the problems day in day out that you as the business owner may not see. So as well as thinking about the problems that you might face as a business owner, you also need to encourage your employees to raise their concerns in a constructive manner. But having a culture within your organization where people will speak up about not only where mistakes are currently happening, but where they see the potential for mistakes happen is quite important.
And if you sit down and can identify where these pinch points are, where these risks are, you can then do something about them. In my previous company, we used a couple of models and these are fairly widely accepted models and a lot of people use them.
One is a very simple matrix, and essentially you plot on one side, the severity, so from low to high, and then on the other scale, you plot the impact of that mistake. So it might be that you serve the wrong dish to the wrong customer. It might be low likelihood, but the impact of business It's fairly easy to resolve that. If you undercook the chicken, then the risk to the customer goes up. The likelihood of you doing it is a lot lower if you've got professional chefs employed and you have proper standards and controls, but the risk goes up to the individual. And then what you would then do is you would then take these risks or these threats, and you would then put them into another model.
And there's a model bow time and what you do is you put the events in the middle, and then on either side you have leading up to the event, and on the other side, you have should the event occur. And what you're trying to do is put barriers in place on either side. So you would, you would try and put barriers in place through procedures, training techniques, policy, equipment, whatever it might be. You put things in place to prevent the incident happening in the first place. So how we can prevent the chicken from being undercooked? Well I'm going to make sure my staff are properly trained. I'm going to give them means to test the temperature of the chicken. I'm going to give them guidelines for how they should prepare the food and then how we do we go forward and do it should the events occur. And that's also quite important.
Lauren:
It’s so interesting. I was thinking about a client of ours, who was not super small but a smallish brick and mortar business that has about 10 employees, and she worked all the time and was really hesitant to hire more people because she said that people make mistakes and it's just easier if I do it. And you know, it sounds illogical from the outside but I do it to where it's really really hard for me to delegate and trust that clients are going to be taken care of and given a true VIP service. It makes me really nervous the thought of someone else handling it. So for control freaks like me and the client I just mentioned, what do you recommend? I guess it's low threat risk that we're scared of.
Marcus:
It depends on your reputation. So if you're dealing with VIPs, your reputation is everything, your brand and your reputation. So if you damage your reputation, it might seem like a low risk, no one's gonna get injured, but your company might. So actually, the risk to you or your business is fairly high. It's difficult to let go of something and it's difficult to relinquish control.
But by hiring more people, you're not actually relinquishing control. Yes, you introduce more people to your organization that require training and monitoring, but it enables you as the leader, the manager, and the owner to take a step back and have a broader overview of what's going on in your organization. And by not being so heavily involved in the day to day, you are more likely to see more clearly where these risks might be within your organization. And certainly you can act on the information you're getting back from employees.
So okay, so you with your employees, if you have enough work for four employees every day of the week, and you employ five they might be underutilized they might be under stimulated. So under stimulation can be a problem if people get bored.
But also if you overwork your employees, they're more likely to make mistakes. And then the more lights make mistakes for a number of reasons. One, they're overworked. So they might be stressed. But also, they might start cutting corners, where they deem it appropriate. And so what you don't want is for people within your organization to cut corners, because they think it's the most appropriate way of doing it. Unless you're aware, it might be entirely appropriate in a certain set of circumstances to deviate from your normal routine. And often that is the case. There are times in aviation, where we deviate from the rule set, we deviate because the rule set can't account for every single possibility. It covers the majority of them, but there are times when it just isn't appropriate. But we don't take those decisions lightly. And we don't make those decisions on our own. Often, it's a crew decision to deviate from something.
Well, in an organization. You don't want an individual on their own making a decision just to do something different because it saves time. Equally. It might be that the way they're doing it is more efficient for your organization. It might actually be better for you, but you might never know that if you are so busy dealing with the day to day, all the time.
And so feeding into that you need to have a culture in your organization where people come to you and say, hey, I'm being overworked, I need to offload some work. And here's a potential threat. We're working too hard. We're missing things. We've already this week, we've dropped the ball here and here, we nearly forgot to pick the clients off or we nearly missed this, or I found a way where we can reduce our workload by changing a procedure here. If you know about it, you can then take this new procedure and put it through your risk models and have a look at whether it complies with all the barriers that you've put in place to prevent certain errors from occurring later on.
So actually, taking a step back and employing another individual whilst it might cost you money out of your pocket, it frees up capacity for you, you're delegating more effectively. So you're also empowering your employees more, they feel more valued, and you're more likely to see where the errors and issues are in your organization and that's important for you. As an owner as a leader, you need to better take a step back.
Lauren:
Very true. I've been reading a lot of, Brene Brown books, actually listening to the audiobooks because she's amazing. And when she talks about leadership, she really talks about empowering. So similar to you, creating a culture where mistakes aren't necessarily penalized unless someone was aware of severe consequences and did it anyways, but instead creating a culture where mistakes are talked about, and human errors are talked about so that it can be prevented. But she also talks about empowering your team to be able to reach whatever basically complete projects in any way they think is best to achieve the final outcome. Now I bring this up because I know you and I have talked a lot about checklists, and I know that in your line of work you've mentioned and it's burned into my brain that there are checklists for everything, everything down to the tee. I remember you said there was a checklist for you to go to the airport with, what you should be wearing and stuff. So I guess what are your thoughts on that? Where are the lines with freedom to complete things, how you see fit versus following protocol? And should those protocols be in place?
Marcus:
I think it depends on what it is you're trying to achieve as well. So I work in aviation, and there's a very good reason for having checklists. We have checklists for emergencies, checklists for how we get the aircraft ready because you have to do things in a certain way. And if you have problems with the airplane, you have to deal with them in a certain sequence of events. If I give you a project to run, I can empower you to make decisions, but I still need to set boundaries. A bit like when you run a race, there are markers and there are boundaries, so you don't go out of bounds. You follow a set path, but you have latitude to run 10 meters either side of the middle of the road. So it doesn't really matter but you set appropriate boundaries based on the person's experience, knowledge and skill set. But give them some latitude to make decisions within that, and you'll find that they are able to potentially come up with ideas that you hadn't thought of.
But empowering people is good for the individual as well, because they feel valued and trusted. And you'll get more from those people. If you just tell someone, I want you to write me a paper on this book, I've read it. It's about this. And I want you to write a paper on that. You're not empowering someone to just be entirely free and come up with whatever they want. because there'll be budgetary constraints, time constraints, procurement constraints, you might need certain sorts of equipment, you might only be able to procure them from certain countries, for example. So you still need to set boundaries.
I mean, for us checklists are different to the boundaries, but sometimes those checklists aren't always appropriate. My own checklist is not really a checklist but I have a procedure that I follow every time I go to work, because I'm required to do certain things. I'm required to have certain documentation with me. I'm required to wear certain uniforms and have certain items on me. And my process before I go to work is the same every time and touchwood, it makes sure that I don't forget these things because I repeat them. But checklists are also fallible as well. They're not. They're not the panacea, they are just another tool that you can use for reducing the risk of error.
Lauren:
So you bring up sort of like a habit building thing that you do on your own, no one else is making you really do it. And so I guess that's like a really good segue to, like small companies or sole proprietors, what's your advice for small companies or freelancers with navigating risk if they are the only or one of the few employees?
Marcus:
So it doesn't really matter how big your organization is, because ultimately, you need to understand where your risks are. So if you are an online shop, you have certain risks that if your internet goes down, how you are going to function, so you need to have something in place to deal with that. And it might be that you have a mobile internet that you can use so you can access the internet if your broadband service goes down, you might have a small shop that you run on your own. Well, what if there's an issue if the roof leaks, the boiler bursts, you can't heat the premises? Is it a problem, it might be that losing one day's business actually isn't isn't a problem. And that's a risk that you hold. But you have someone in place to come and fix it so that you, you limit the amount of time that isn't impactful. It might be that losing the internet, for example, if you're an online business is entirely unacceptable. Well, you need to identify that so you have some kind of business continuity. The amount of risk or the level of risk that you hold will change depending on the type of industry and the size of your organization.
But it's still the same process. Whether you're one person or 100 people or a million people, it doesn't really matter. You need to think about where these risks are, what the impact to you is, what can you stand to bear, what can you afford to burn? And then once I've identified them, what can I do about it?
So we use a little mantra and it's to avoid trap, mitigate. So can I avoid the risk entirely? So I am a mobile hairdresser or I'm a delivery guy, it doesn't really matter. So I wake up in the morning and the roads are covered in snow. Well, I could avoid the risk by just not getting in my van and driving. I'm not getting in my car and driving, but that might not be appropriate. So can I mitigate the risks in some way? Well, I might be able to do that. I might be able to take certain steps to start to track can I trap some of these threats? Well, the roads are gonna be slippery on me. So what can I do? Well, I can trap some of those threats because I can use snow chains, for example, or I could go later, I can wait for the roads to be cleared. And or if that's not possible at all, how else can I mitigate it? Well, I can drive more slowly, I can drive more carefully. I can allow more time for my journey. I can make sure that everyone in my seat belt doesn't take away the risk of the cars getting on the ice, but I can do what I can to protect my occupants should something occur. And that's the important thing.
So I want to avoid as many risks as I can, but it's not feasible to avoid risks. Because every time I wake up in the morning and I leave my building, I'm taking a risk. Because I'm across the road, I'm taking a risk.
The other thing that I think might be of interest to you is business continuity, something that a lot of big businesses have. So they have plans in place for when issues occur. But having all these things done, having risk assessments done is great, you can do them, but you've then got to act on that information as well. So just having thought about the process is great, but you need to do something about it once you've thought about it. And also you need to keep revisiting. So risks will change all the time. Three months ago, the world was an entirely different place. In six months time, the world is going to be at a place. So a year ago was entirely different again. All of our risks and the way we go about life and business changes all the time. So just because I came up with a construct that works today, doesn't mean it's gonna work in two or three months time and I have to be prepared to adapt the way that I work, the way that my business works. and when I'm prepared to take risks or not, depending on what's going on in the world.
Lauren:
Do you recommend that a company tests or looks at those risks every quarter,?
Marcus:
I'm reluctant to put a timescale on it. But yeah, you need to exercise your contingency plans. That's the important thing. So in airfields, they will run crash exercises. So they'll have tabletop exercises where they run through, they'll have maybe 10 or 12 key players in the room from various departments and they will run through scenarios, but just around a table and see where the procedures work on and then they'll also do bigger exercises. Now this might not be appropriate if you're an accounting company, it's not gonna be appropriate to run a live exercise. I'm not sure what you would do but for an answer, you'll run self funding. The fire engines will go out, the ambulance drivers will go out, ground staff will go out, the local emergency services will get involved and you see it with civil services as well. The police National Guard fire service does exercises, where they will test these procedures and policies. The learning that takes place from those gets fed back into the continuity plans and their contingency planning, and also where they're taking risks where they're not perfect.
So it's very important that you look at yourself and think about where you're taking risks, you come up with some way of dealing with that. And then you exercise the plans that you come up with, so that you can prove whether it's working. And then that's, that's quite important.
There's one other thing, and it's kind of relevant to what's going on in the world. At the moment, everyone wants to talk about Coronavirus COVID-19, call it what you will, it's a global pandemic. If it was, it's a global pandemic, on an unprecedented scale. So people will say, why did you not foresee this? Now, It's very difficult to foresee something that's quite on this scale, because we've seen things before SARS, Ebola, without other things, bird flu, swine flu, mad cow disease. They didn't impact the world in the way that this has impacted the world. So nobody could really foresee it. A lot of learning is going to take place in the way the world shuts down or not how we deal with these sorts of crises. But that's kind of by what something that we're seeing now, as well as organizations struggling, people are struggling. Many of my friends are in lockdown, and they're struggling as well.
So personal well being is very important. And even outside of situations like this, the well being of your employees is very important. And there are tools available to people to help deal with stress and anxiety. So one of the things that happens when you end up in a situation that you're unfamiliar with which we will, which is something we're going to talk about, originally, when we started talking about this, we're just dealing with an unfamiliar situation. Unusual situations put us into stress, and you get your fight or flight response. And something that we do in aviation is resilience training. So we train our people to be resilient for unknown situations. And what we always try and do is we try and bring things back to a note in some way and we break things down in simple steps.
So for flying an airplane, the first thing I want to do is fly the airplane. Everything else is irrelevant. Because if I'm not in control of the airplane, it doesn't matter if I'm dealing with the fire on the wing or the passenger that is unruly, I need to make sure that is safe. So you can boil that down to many other things. What is the number one important thing that is going to keep everybody safe and deal with that first. And once I've dealt with that, I've already achieved something and I can move on through a process to fix the problem. But then well being of an individual stress, anxiety, low mood situations where people are isolated or they're overworked, people need to find ways of maintaining positive mental health. So there are a number of people at the moment that are offering free sessions online when you see it every now and again. There are breathing exercises that you can read up on on the internet. Something that I found very useful going through the isolation that came with Coronavirus, is having a routine. So between flights for me I was not allowed to leave my problem. But I gave myself tasks to do every day. That meant I had a reason to get out of bed. I had a reason to work my brain so I started taking lessons. So I had something to study and something to focus on. Exercise is always very important. It gives you something to do, something to focus on being mentally and physically fit is really good and helps you get through all of these things. So it's all very well to look after organization, but it's the people inside it's going to look after themselves.
Phil:
Now this is a great conversation you're having.
Lauren:
You’re back!
Phil:
I'm back. You knew that I couldn't stay away that long. As we do we take a little break in the conversation to tell you about what we have cooking in our kitchen here at PPC ,Phil Pallen Collective. The last few months have been pretty hectic but exciting. In terms of creating and launching courses, this is a new thing for us in 2020. We launched three courses. Do you want to tell everyone what the courses are?
Lauren:
Yeah, let me see if I can name them off the top of my head because you did all the work for these.
Phil:
I'm literally quizzing you.
Lauren:
My palms are sweaty. This was not in the script. Okay. We've got Content Mastery, which teaches you how to prepare content quickly using a system that you use yourself.
Phil:
Yeah, I'll take it.
Lauren:
Next. We have Instagram Mastery. Is that out of order? It's out of order.
Phil:
It's out of order. But you can keep going.
Lauren:
Instagram Mastery is Phil Pallen's latest course that teaches people how to become true masters of their Instagram feed, stories, live and IGTV.
Phil:
Okay, I like that description. That was a good description that was even better than your description for Content Mastery. We have one more course. Can you remember the name of it?
Lauren:
I can, Email Mastery.
Phil:
Oh, that's the one.
Lauren:
Learn how to build your email list through freebies and content that people actually want. And then keep that list engaged by delivering timely messages through email.
Phil:
What a selection, of course has what a world of possibilities and you as a loyal listener brand therapy, we are giving you a code that not only works on one, two, but three of these courses so you can get 50% off the list price. Courses are listed at $299 but this promo code will make it $149 and all you need to do is use the code THERAPY50 at checkout to get our courses for 15% off.
Lauren:
Oh my gosh.
Phil:
I had, braces so when I say 15 and 50 quickly they sounds the same. Not 15, 50, enunciating.
Lauren:
I get it. I wonder if speech therapists get an influx of people after they get their braces off, because I got a lisp after my braces, it's still alive and well as ever, as our listeners know. It's crazy.
Phil:
You should sue your orthodontist because of that.
Lauren:
No, Dr. Moon's amazing. He's great. I don't want to sue Dr. Moon, are you going to sue your orthodontist?
Phil:
No. It's just the price you pay for beautiful teeth. This is digressing quickly. Should we get back to your conversation with Marcus?
Lauren:
Let's do it.
Phil:
Okay, let's do that.
Lauren:
I listened to an audiobook called Atomic Habits. I think I told you about it. When? Yeah, and So basically, James clear the author is in the mind That you can automate your brain. And you can pretty much automate all parts of your life generally, so that you're using less mental effort, while still getting closer and closer to your goals or the type of life that you want to live. And so he basically teaches you kind of how to do it. I can't remember what it's called. It's like habit building.
So first, if you want to start getting in the habit of exercising at the gym every morning, well, that actually starts with your nighttime routine, to make sure that you're in bed on time so that you can wake up feeling refreshed early, I'm sure you know all this, but it's just interesting because I was thinking about just personally how my schedule is all over the place every day is fairly different.
I wake up at a different time last night, I was working on my computer until nine but I tried to do that until six sometimes and you're so right because for us to be mentally strong and to have the proper instincts in place to handle things that are unexpected, we need to make sure that we're in a good position. I personally have a good healthy foundation to tackle whatever is thrown my way.
Marcus:
As you mentioned, sleep. Sleep is hugely important. It's probably one of the most important things that you can have. If you don't sleep properly, and you're tired, you don't function properly, and it knocks into everything else you do. And having a good night's sleep is really important. When I went through my basic military training, the guy that I shared a room with, he didn't have very many rules, but the one that sticks in my mind was the lights go off at midnight, and they don't come until six in the morning. If you haven't finished what you need to do, irrelevant, the lights go off and you sleep for at least six hours. So because the extra one or 2% that you might gain in tidying up your uniform or ironing this or getting ready for that isn't worth the two hours that you spend doing it. The two hours of sleep that you will lose or not more than 2% of your performance the next day. And the day after that it will be even more and even more. And in the end, you'll end up in a really, really bad position. Focus on the stuff that’s important. Ninety nine percent and a good night's sleep is better than ninety nine and a half percent of a bad sleep.
Lauren:
I feel like we covered a lot of really good things in this episode.
Marcus:
Well, there are many resources on the internet where you can read up on this on your own. And there are many, many companies that offer advice in specific areas, depending on your industry, you can plug into these resources to get help and advice, which is also also quite important. And a lot of people now are offering free advice. And I think that's going to continue for some time. I don't know how long this nonsense is going to go on for the well being. But certainly everyone's adapting. So a lot of people are doing business online. They're doing meetings online now. And it's a very quick and easy way to get some information quickly to your organization and people shouldn't be afraid to reach out for help, either. We can't help the experts with everything. We bring in experts. You know, I bring in a plumber or an electrician if I need work done on my house and I wouldn't build my house myself. If I need help in my organization, dealing with risk or dealing with some other aspects, bring in someone who can help you. It might be that you just need an hour of their time to give you some tips and some guidelines.
Lauren
You don't need someone necessarily to come in and pull your organization apart and do all the work for you. Because that would also be counterproductive. You need to be involved in your own organization. But calling on experts in different fields to assist us is not something to shy away from. If you can afford to do it as well. That's the other that's the other side of it. But there's plenty of free resources available, but also, there are plenty of people that are willing to help so don't be afraid to call on help, when you need it. I think that everyone should just call you Marcus from Planespoken. So where can people find you online?
Marcus:
So my website which was amazingly branded by Lauren and Phil, which is planespoken.co.uk. There's a signup box on there, so you can sign up to the emails that we send out and there's a contact form. And if you've got any questions or queries, feel free to get in touch and ask me your questions and queries and I'll do my best to help out.
Lauren:
Thank you so much Marcus. This has been great.
