98. How do you succeed on Instagram? (f. Lucas O'Keefe)
Do you have dreams of growing a thriving audience on Instagram? 📸 Hosts Lauren and Phil met with Lucas O'Keefe (Instagram Coach and one of the fastest growing creators they know) to dish on his secrets. We get Lucas' perspective on consistency (and the number of posts you ACTUALLY need to publish in a day), community engagement, content tips, and so much more. For anyone who's passionate about Instagram, have a listen.
Episode transcription
Phil
Before we dive into this week's episode, I just want to let you know about our newest course Instagram mastery. This course gives you the secrets to quickly improve your Instagram growth, engagement and content through lifetime access to 20. Plus easy to follow videos, tutorials, and planning worksheets. This course is designed for busy people to take actionable steps to push your brand forward on this platform, learn only what's important to master Instagram, take action and grow with lifetime access to continue learning. I cover feed stories live igtv, even Instagram reels. when used properly, your Instagram is an incredible lead generation tool. And I'll show you how, as the thank you for being a valued listener to this podcast, use promo code therapy 50. all caps to get 50% off the full price of the course our way of saying thanks for listening. Now onto the show.
Phil:
Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. Now here's an intro Lauren that might grab your attention and maybe the listener to today we're talking about a topic that we have talked about, honestly, far too much on this podcast. But we try not to talk about it that often anymore, because it's so overdone. It's over killed. Back in our olden days, our early days of this podcast when we would answer questions from guests that would call us up 90% of them, hardly an exaggeration, were about Instagram. Okay, so we haven't talked about this recently because frankly, we're kind of sick of talking about it. But we made an exception. I begged with Lauren and said we need to have one special person on our podcast.
Lauren:
Okay, plan and beg. You said I know a guy who's growing rapidly on Instagram. Should we have him on? And I said absolutely. So let's like reframe this for me being the stern taskmaster on the podcast.
Phil:
We like a little drama here on Brand Therapy. On that note, Lucas, we want to welcome you to Brand Therapy. We're so happy to have you here.
Lucas
I'm happy to be here, especially with an intro like that.
Phil
We know each other exclusively from Instagram. And I should mention another fine Canadian here joining us with lots of stories today. So Lucas is my friend from Instagram. Lucas is growing faster right now than anyone else that I know on Instagram that includes celebrities and fancy people. And I feel so proud. Lucas, I barely know you. But I feel proud of you already, because you're growing so fast. And you're so dedicated to this platform. And while I said in the intro that I'm sick of talking about it, I want to talk about Instagram with you. We'll talk about carousels. We'll talk about dedication and time needed on this platform. Before we do that, can you because I didn't know this for a long time. But can you tell us a bit about you and your career and what you got cooking? Because it's really pretty awesome.
Lucas:
Absolutely, yeah. So now when people ask me what I do, I tell them, I'm an Instagram business coach. So go along with that, because we always hear you know, Instagram growth, this Instagram gram growth. That's a mouthful to say. But I say Instagram growth really means nothing if you don't have a business or brand foundation beneath it that you're going to build that growth on top of.
So what I do now is I help people who have a business idea that they are passionate about, or confident in, turn it into a business turn into a place to get customers and to grow a community on Instagram.
But where I started before all that, I am still a coach, still a mentor, but where I started with all that is as an elementary school teacher. So for the last six years, I've been an elementary school teacher here in Canada. That's what, so kindergarten to grade eight system before we get into high school, high school, not my thing. So I have not gone into those waters of teaching.
Lauren:
I mean, I wouldn't want to be judged by 14 year olds, especially nowadays.
Lucas:
Especially today. Yeah. Maybe when I was in grade eight, I wouldn't mind it. But now I don't know. Which is why social media is now the topic we're talking about. But something that has always been a constant for me, above the curriculum above delivering lessons has always just been connection. And in hindsight, what I always loved about teaching is being able to establish those connections through communication, right.
So when people say, you know, how did you get into business? How did you get into business coaching, I say you know what, having a business you really need to know how to communicate and connect with your target customers, your audience, whatever form they take, without that you're really not going to take off. So I still think I am teaching. And I still think I'm leveraging all that connection. But one thing that obviously came onto the radar for me as a school teacher for 12, 13,14 year olds, was social media, right? So they say that whatever is on the smartphone of the 14 year old girl of today, is probably going to take pop culture by storm. So when we see things like TikTok, and Snapchat and Instagram, you know, it's probably going to be, you know, a big powerhouse in terms of business, and in terms of marketing.
So, I use teaching to kind of be a way to develop that, that skill for connection and communication. And on the side, what I was doing was experimenting with social media, and helping a few businesses here and there, grow their presence on social media, until it got to the point now where it's my full time job. So I've taken a leave of absence from teaching. And now I'm pursuing my job as an Instagram Business Coach full time.
Phil:
Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks. There's so many things in here that I want to unpack. But the first one is that we've talked, I mean, I even had a podcast before this. That was just me. And I remember talking to influencers and people that were in the hundreds of thousands of followers and Lauren and I have chatted with a view. And when asked about growth, specifically, the answer is usually the same. The C word comes up. Community, you know, this idea that the more you give to your audience, the more it returns. Can you talk about that, right now, in terms of where you're seeing immediate growth. I had it up yesterday, but I forgot to pull it up before this interview, but you're growing like, at least 200 followers a day consistently for the last month. That's a lot. You know, especially when you're just starting out, you've only been at this for a handful of months, really, right in terms of, rapid growth. So can you talk to that right now about what's working and what your advice is, for people looking for that.
Lucas:
Yeah, and what it comes down to, for me, as I always say, you know, sounds cliche, but it's called social media, you got to be social, right. And the added element I put there is we now live in a time where people don't really look up to perfection, they don't connect with perfection, people want something they can relate to, whether that's a brand or a business. And I think social media is the perfect platform to show to your tribe, to your community, to the people who have a similar story to what you've experienced, that you are the person that they can relate to. So that's where the community comes into it. And that is one of my you know, the three C's of Instagram, we have community, consistency and content, community. Without that you don't have anything.
And where I find community to be so important, is when we look at the discussion of quality versus quantity, right? On Instagram, it is all on social media, in general, anything that is follower based, it becomes extremely, there's a lot of pressure to go for quantity, to try to get those followers as quickly as you can to get that social proof. You know, you always feel like you need 10k before anybody takes you seriously. But where I really see the actual tool in terms of scaling, growth, and to the amount not right now, like you said, where it's a couple hundred per day, is you have to start slow, you have to focus on that core tribe of 50 people who are going to support you, 50 people who are going to push out your content and advocate for you. And when you have those 50 extremely high quality followers or connections, you know, and you spend a lot of time building that foundation, that's when getting the quantity and the large amount of quickly gaining followers really comes to it.
So where I would answer, a community is focused on the most quality community you can build. And quantity will come from that and you'll scale accordingly.
Lauren:
Now, what about quantity in terms of posting? So I obviously understand that having good posts and good content is king, it's the most important thing. Is there a rule of thumb you have with the amount of times someone should be posting?
Lucas:
So I do say you know that that's second see consistency. Go with once per day as best you can. And that can just be showing up once per day, right? Instagram is an amazing platform because they add so many features almost every month now. Right? We have reels now we have ID shot
Phil:
Don't remind me every time they do it, I have to update my courses. It drives me crazy.
Lucas:
Exactly. Yes, they are just adding their quick firing all the features right now, right? But those features are all different ways to show up. So at its base, I do say to people, if you can try to show up with one post per day, but that post is just going to be your message, that post is going to be documenting your process what you're going through, what you can help people through what you can help bring to people, so you can really kind of simplify it and how you're showing up. That being said there is an immense pressure I find When people do compare their account to others, they see what this person is doing or that person's posting. And they do feel that they have to put more and more out there.
And that's just where I tell people, you know, don't let consistency be a detrimental tool to your business growth, right? Do what you're able to handle, and what works for you.
Lauren:
That's so refreshing. There have been all these Instagram kind of best practice guides and growth hacking guides that I've read. And very often, the recommendation will be to post on the feed alone four to six times per day, and I just don't see how that's possible for anyone unless they're unemployed, or unless they get like, actually get money from their Instagram posts. Like I just that right? Doesn't seem like a reality to me.
Phil:
It also like you can quickly fall into this trap, where Instagram becomes a chore instead of something that's fulfilling and exciting to build that community and connection. And I'm, a little more vocal now about this than I was before. But I'm a fan of social media vacations. I think like, yeah, the algorithm and consistency and growth is important. But at times, I think it becomes so overwhelming that you, it's easy to lose a sense of priorities and what really matters. Like, for example, we've been working nonstop on our new website, it's taken 200 hours, and I couldn't finish it if I spend the time I normally spend on Instagram. So I took two weeks and didn't post. Will my growth go down? Yes. Will whatever happens? Yes. But at the end of the day, I've got other priorities, even just mental health. I mean, I'm fine. I think I'm healthy mentally. But I think there are moments when I just need a break. And I think that people relate to that. So that perspective is refreshing. And I think it's important now.
Lucas:
Yeah, burnout is the number one problem that I think is going through any social media community. And like you said, where I see burnout being a problem is, it comes when you find your purpose on Instagram, or any social media platform, when you start to feel like it's a chore, like you said, right? When it starts to feel like you're in that hamster wheel of just continuing to put out content continuing, to show up for your audience, not because you value the message anymore, but because you feel like you have to.
And like you said the algorithm is everybody's favorite word. But the algorithm can really focus on it, the algorithm can really scare people because they think, you know, here's this machine that is getting them followers, it's helping them scale and build momentum. But they worry that if they stop, it's also going to stop and they're going to be going back to square one. But you're absolutely right. Where we see community really coming into play here is your community, if you build them the right way, is always going to be there. Right? don't disappear for five years. But if you have a short term vacation, which is absolutely important, your community's gonna understand that you can set a precedent with a story and just say like, Hey, guys, I need to take a little bit of a break. I hope you understand, right, but I'll be here in X amount of days or X amount of weeks. And I look forward to hearing about, you know, what's new in your life when I get back, but people will understand if they're a community.
Phil:
But that's and that's communication. The first thing you brought up? Yep. That's communication is just, you know, just communicating that a lot of times problems are solely based on an issue with communication. Really cool. It's also cool, because I've watched you grow. And I love that you're in the trenches of this right now. Like, I'm not interested in talking to you when you're reflecting back on your first 100K. I mean, maybe I will want to talk to you about that. But I like that you're in the game. Right now. You and I have talked in dmws, often, specifically about carousels. Can we talk about Instagram carousels?
Lauren:
The fourth C.
Lucas:
It is the unwritten C of Instagrams true talk about them.
Phil:
Lucas, I don't need to prompt you anymore. You talk about these?
Lucas:
Yes. So super quickly. For anyone who doesn't know what a carousel is. It is that multiple I call them slides even though they are photos and then go to Instagram. But it is that multiple slide posts where you can have that super fun and interactive swipe swipe feature, right, or you can swipe through very effectively. And I think they're very effective, because they're kind of like those PowerPoint presentations that everybody loved making whenever they could when they were in school, right.
I know, as a teacher, whenever I told you to give, if I told the kids to write a paper or something, they'd be you know, oh, man, I don't wanna do this. But if it's like, no, you can do a PowerPoint presentation, they would be all over it. So everybody loves, I think the presentation format, especially the visual presentation format. So carousels now have become this thing where if we're talking about e-commerce, it's still just like here. It is like a continuous long photo of all our cool products. And I think that's very neat to have.
But where it is now in terms of the education side of things, and the bringing value side of things with content, is people can pretty much put a pretty powerful PowerPoint presentation into the Instagram feed where you're no longer having one single image or one single post for your community to interact with view for 30 seconds, read your caption and move on which the algorithm measures. Instead, it is now a 10, slide, action packed value packed post, where someone based on how much you write and how engaging you are, is going to be scrolling through those slides for a few minutes. They're going to be, you know, this makes sense. This is what I have to apply for. Lucas isn't just giving me one single tip on one post or one quote, he's showing me a different actionable step to the point where it's really a guide I can follow.
So carousels are just maximizing the amount of value you can pack into one Instagram post. And because the algorithm, you know, it's a common topic, but it is important, the algorithm wants people to stay on Instagram, right, so they don't switch over to Twitter, they don't switch over to YouTube. You can pretty much give the algorithm what it wants, when your community is staying on a carousel post for a long period of time and consuming your information. And they also get saved a lot because you can pack a lot of value.
So that is my long winded explanation of a carousel for anybody who doesn't know, but also why they're valuable. Now, I'm gonna kind of go into my slight problem with carousels.
Phil:
I love controversy. I'm excited.
Lucas:
Carousels are amazing. Like I said, I think I've made clear, amazing ways to grow to please the algorithm to get amazing organic reach for your account, to convince people to follow you because you bring value. But because they're so effective at that, we've now kind of seen this movement, right? I even have considered myself to be part of what's called the carousel community on Instagram. We see this movement where everybody is just creating carousels because they get some followers.
But I say people have to be very careful with that. Because when you get into this habit of putting out a carousel where you know, it's very little personal brand, very little identity, you don't have that unique factor because everybody else is doing it. Yes, you're going to get followers. But you almost become more a part of a movement, as opposed to an individual piece that people are going to want to learn from. Right?
So carousels are great. But they're a bit problematic, because they're almost so addicting and so rewarding in terms of followers, that people kind of get consumed by them. And that's all they create.
Phil:
Great advice. Great advice. They're also a huge amount of work. So I'm kind of in this interesting place where I want to go more in on them, because my top performing posts of 2020 have been carousels, specifically one about three tools for creating content I had like over 1000 saves, and I had never experienced that before. And so it's a little bit like a drug, right? When you get that kind of attention. And it's like, Oh, hello, well, let's keep doing more. But then I can’t spend two hours or three hours making a carousel when I need to deliver a client website is my challenge. So I'm in that interesting zone right now where I'm trying to figure out, what do I have to do? What can Lauren help me write? What can our designer help me execute so that it's not me fiddling in Canva for three hours?
Lauren:
I'm always getting on Phil about putting, around in Canva. So that's evolving putzing around, like, get out of there.
Phil:
But I think it's relatable. I think it's relatable, though, because people are like, wow, you know, how much do I have to do to grow? And while juggling everything else that life throws at me not just work, but also children at home that are studying and life commitments. So that's an interesting question. Does Lucas have any advice on juggling? Or how much time you think Instagram takes in order to grow and any advice around juggling.
Lucas:
Absolutely. No, that is a super important question. Because, you know, I think I came across this concept from one of your posts, Phil, but it was like the brand's personality split, right? And where I kind of have taken that is almost like the value versus personality split. And I think when people just go for value, you know, value value value. First of all, value content takes a long time to make, right. But when they're just bringing value, I think they kind of get away from their identity. And that important unique factor that really is, in my opinion, what gets someone to want to be your client or want to be your customer, right?
Because like I said, people want to deal with the brand people want to deal with the person behind the business. So that really resonated with me because I think we still need to put out that personal content, that personality content that is showing who you are, who's a person designing these things. or the person creating these, you know, ideas are, and that's where people almost get too addicted to the growth and the reach that carousels and only valuable like value heavy posts get that they almost get too afraid to put themselves out there in their content and to start focusing on their personality.
So, yes, Instagram can take a lot of time, but only when someone chases after what I call vanity metrics, right? If you are chasing after followers, if you're chasing after likes, and if you are chasing after comments, you can spend eight hours per day. I know many people who have come to me and not the edge burnout, they've said, I've been spending eight hours per day on Instagram. I've gained like 5000, 7000, 10,000 followers or more. But I've made zero sales. I don't have any customers. I don't have any clients. You know, I came on here because I wanted a business. Getting followers felt great. But that's all I've been doing right.
Lauren:
Followers don't pay the bills, always they can always
Lucas:
Turn followers into clients or turn them into customers, right. But when you only pursue followers, you kind of lose sight of that. So I think, again, people need to start with that business foundation. They need to think about why they're on Instagram in the first place. And usually it is a business oriented or influencer oriented goal or brand oriented goal. And then stay true to that right. What are you going to sell? How are you going to help people? What service are you going to offer? focus on that first, develop that first, even in its simple format of having one outcome you can achieve right? Like maybe I will create content for personal trainers, that's the only thing you're going to do right now. That's fine. But start from a place you're able to achieve it. And then build up the brand, build up your social media from there. But if you wait till you have 10,000 followers, and you haven't really prepped your community to become customers, hitting 10K or hitting 50K or hitting 100k isn't gonna change anything. Right?
Lauren:
Right now you'd mentioned vanity metrics. I'm curious to know, are there any metrics that people should pay attention to that you find does help guide your content strategy?
Lucas:
Yeah. So if you are the creator, and you have access to that whole, like suite of insights, then you should definitely be looking at your saves and your shares, right? Because shares are awesome, because that is someone who is pretty much advertising for you. Right? They're pushing out your content in some way or another to someone who probably wasn't following you. That's something you want to shoot for. You want to look at the signs of like, okay, maybe, what did I do differently about this post that made someone share it? How can I recreate that and work towards increasing that too.
And saves are great, you know, first of all, because what I mentioned with the algorithm, it's going to keep someone the algorithm thinks a save is going to have someone coming back onto Instagram and checking your content. So it likes to see that. But also, a save means your content was valuable. It means someone wants to almost subscribe to you, someone wants to go back and check what you made. Right? They are pretty much giving you the biggest compliment you can get for an Instagram post. So those are the two I would focus on.
Those are also the two most difficult ones to forge or to fake right. And we live in the time of bots, and you know, spam accounts. Even you know, likes and followers have always been pretty forgettable. But like comments aren't even the best metric anymore. So I always say followers, likes and comments, to a fair extent, are vanity metrics. Because they can be faked. They can be forged. But a share or save is a much more authentic action that takes a bit more intent behind it from the person who's doing it.
Lauren:
That's so interesting. And it makes so much sense that you mentioned the bots and probably Instagram is going to be prioritizing those metrics that can't really use a bot that's so smart.
Phil:
Do you have any apps that you love to use to pull all of this off? Whether it's designing your posts, or even just keeping track of comments? One of the first things I noticed about you was how insanely crazy your engagement is on all of your posts having over 100 comments. It's insane. I know, in part that includes you replying and you're super diligent about that. Do you have any apps that you use to manage all of that?
Lucas:
So in terms of like posting, or obviously you want to post at your peak time, that still is something to be consistent with using those insights to find your peak time. But one thing I this isn't actually the app question right away. But one thing I do with insights is try to make sure it's not only a time when everybody's active, but think about like your ideal customer, your ideal client and the time zone they're in. Time zones are one of the biggest, you know, biggest hurdles you have to kind of overcome with this because, you know, someone can be 12 hours in the future when you're posting, but try to think about what that person is doing. And you know, if they're, if it's nighttime, they're just unwinding if it's their lunch break at work. Don't just look at how many people are trying to think of what your ideal community is doing.
And then in terms of apps and programs, I actually use Facebook creator studio now for almost everything. Oh, yeah. So it's interesting. It's amazing that we finally have, you know, a first party made by Facebook made by Instagram platform that is going to let us schedule and post our content. It's not as insightful and not as feature packed as the third party ones that are out there. Hopefully they're going to add some things here and there. But Facebook Creator Studio is now my go to for scheduling all my Instagram posts. I can do it from the desktop. But besides that, one that I do like to use is Ninjalitics.com. I think, yeah, it is great, because you can do a few things. I've only ever used the free version of it. I've never actually used it. I believe they had a paid service. But what the free one, what I've done is you type in your name, you type in any accounts name. And like Phil is talking about with engagement, it gives you an engagement rate. So it looks at your average post. And it'll say, okay, in comparison to Lucas's follower account, let's see what percentage of his followers on average leave comments on his posts. Right?
And if you think about it, my engagement rate is about seven or 8%, I believe. What else quite high? Yeah, right. So Ninjalitics is great for that, because it allows you to, not to look at it too much. But you can track and see to what extent your community is engaged with your content. And like I said, anything above five is usually quite strong. And Ninjalitics will even say, you know, your percentage is 7%, which is higher than average. So they make it very clear.
And if you're someone who's maybe hoping to be an influencer, or someone who's trying to have brand sponsorships, I can guarantee you they're going to look at how engaged your audience is, right? Because we know that followers can be forged, but engagement is a little bit more authentic.
Lauren:
Right? So if someone uses Ninjalitics and finds that their engagement rate is a three, for example, does that mean that they should go to their insights and look at the shares and saves and start trying to uncover what maybe where the opportunities are?
Lucas:
Yeah, that's definitely what I would do. Right? Like, we always say, if something's working, keep doing it. Right. And also success leaves clues. That's another common quote I like to use. We need a whiteboard on here.
Phil:
No, this is crazy.
Lucas:
Yes. So I always say success leaves clues, right. So if you have a post where you notice people were really engaging, people were really commenting and leaving authentic comments. I like to record reels and make memes that are like, making jokes about people who just say, like great posts or like, love this, or just fireball emoji, right, which, which isn't bad. It's still an engagement. But ultimately, you want people to actually comment on what you're doing, comment on you, you know, engage in the conversation here and there, because that's what keeps the conversation that prevents them from just posting one comment and gets them posting three comments. Or maybe you're having a discourse back and forth. And you're both posting five comments.
So typically, what you will find his conversation starters, obviously, are what leads to that higher engagement. So you'll want to look at what posts really facilitated the conversation, from there.
Phil:
Yeah. And people actually often think, can I put in my caption that will get one response, but it's smart to also continue the conversation on that thread. So do you like coffee or tea? I like coffee, I hate tea. Why? You know, or whatever, like, so you continue that thread, so they keep coming back? I think people forget, people can comment more than once. You are going to be so good at this job. I know you're already in this job. But I know a lot of this is like new but you're gonna make such a great coach.
Lucas:
Oh, thank you. I think you know, like I said, teaching is what I've always loved to do. And it's nice that this is this. I still think I'm teaching and I still think I got to do this right.
Phil:
Yeah, definitely are what's next for you? Are you going to be launching anything exciting? Like give us a preview of what's to come?
Lucas:
Yeah, so I've recently launched Sell on Social with Lucas O'Keefe, also SOS for short. And what it is, is a community for entrepreneurs, content, creators, freelancers, people even want to be influencers, to find the resources, the guidance and the accountability, that they need to start actually monetizing all that time and effort they put on Instagram.
So it is a bit of a hybrid between a very scaled back course that people can quickly, you know, watch and get ready with that nice business foundation. And then it is a series of group coaching sessions and video resources that are led by me every single week, just to keep people on board. So it's $10 per month to participate. And there's a huge Facebook community behind that, that I also have as well.
Phil:
I love that that is so cool. I'm so excited to see you do that and grow and continue. I feel like any of the trends I'm gonna spot or any of the hot things to do now, but also sustainable things are things that I'm going to learn from you. And I'm just so excited to see you grow and we appreciate you hanging out with us on Brand Therapy today.
Lucas:
This has been an awesome time. Definitely the most fun podcast I've been a part of.
Lauren
Really?
Lucas:
No. Yeah.
Lauren:
Yes. So glad.
Phil:
I'm so glad. Well, thank you so much. I'm trying to think of a C word to close this. I know I want to close this out. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Lucas for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy.
Lucas:
Thanks for having me.
Lauren:
Awesome. Thank you.