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If you want to promote your brand, should you go live? 🎤Our expert guest Ian Anderson Gray says yes—and hosts Phil and Lauren think so too! In this episode, Ian addresses all roadblocks to going live and unveils the undeniable opportunities. You'll learn why to go live, how to go live, and when to go live so you can get started right away. If the thought of real-time streaming gives you goosebumps, this convincing episode is for you!

Phil:

Brand Therapy. That's the name of this podcast. Welcome. I'm Phil.

Lauren:

And I'm Lauren. And this is a podcast where we tackle business and branding challenges for strangers. They call us. We talk through it for a few minutes, we'd leave them with a good resolution, I guess you want to call it or like, yeah, prodigy. Yeah, some ideas on where to go with all of this. And then when we're feeling particularly frisky, we have our friends on here, sometimes like friends that are that are smarter than us. So this is one of those episodes where we call a friend an expert a guest to talk about a topic in more detail. You know that people are Is this about or that we're curious about? I mean, there you go. That's our podcast. Do you have any questions?

Lauren:

No, but I have a question for you. And it's related to the podcast, I swear.

Phil:

Okay. What's the question?

Lauren:

Can you name this noise?

Phil:

Oh yes. That's from IC Q.

Lauren:

Good one. My God, you know, you know your live interaction and engagement tools very well. The three it is a history okay.

Phil:

MSN Messenger. That was no it wasn't really a noise a distinctive noise. It was more like using characters to like create figures and remember updating your status with all the white the symbols.

Lauren:

Yeah, I remember when I got dumped well cheated on and then dumped my first year of college, when back when MSN Messenger was still a thing. I changed my profile photo. Like really graphic broken heart?

Phil:

Oh my god. Yes, profile photos profile photos.

Lauren:

Anyway, I just thought it was an important question because this episode is with a live video expert. And I would argue that live video is like the frontier of engagement today.

Phil:

It is like we started off with ICQ, moved on to MSN Messenger, then maybe did BBM and then Facebook was created.

Lauren:

And now here we are with live video everywhere.

Phil:

It's true. This is really, no one's going to argue it. You know, this being one of the strongest ways to engage and grow an audience. For me. It's huge. I feel lucky to be able to go live on LinkedIn which is in beta. So not everyone can do it. But I can. So I do also going live on Facebook. Ian really is he's our guest today and really is the authority in this space. All it takes a simple Google search Search for something related to live video. And guess whose website you land on folks Ian Anderson Gray Hello. That's I mean, literally all the blog posts about this the top traffic ones go to his site. He is the expert and guess where he is today?

Lauren:

Where is he today?

Phil:

He's on our podcast called Brand Therapy. Should we get to the conversation?

Lauren:

The podcast that I recorded as well. Yeah. The podcast where is kidding is that until a complete loop? should do it? Yeah, let's get to the conversation with Ian Anderson. Freaking Gray.

Ian:

Hi, my name is Ian Anderson Gray, and I'm based in Manchester in the UK and I help entrepreneurs level up their impact of authority and profit using a live video competently.

Phil:

That is exactly what you do. I am such a fan of you Ian Anderson- Gray. Can I just say that to kick this off, there is absolutely no other single human being that I would speak to about this topic going live on video confidently in a way that aligns with people's goals. So I'm so happy you're here. We are really excited to talk to you.

Ian:

Well I'm really excited that we finally get the time to do this. Great.

Phil:

Well, and so the little backstory here is that you and I have known each other we met briefly years and years ago at New Media, Europe, Mike and Isabella, our friends, their conference, which was in Manchester and then it was in London. And so but you and I never really got to like hang out until about a month ago in Poland where we were both speakers along with Mike and traveled with Isabella, to Info Share and that was so much fun. So I love that I get to like now reflect on some of the things that you and I talked about in did together in Poland. So how cool that now we're Like friends, friends, you know, we're like, we're like real friends.

Ian:

I know it was great. I mean, it's not like we were avoiding each other beforehand, because pretty clear. It's just you know, where these conferences are always a little bit mad and lots of people there. But we knew each other is just we didn't get a proper time to hang out until Poland. Was it last month, but it was yeah, not long ago. And that was just a fabulous conference.

Phil:

It really was. It really was Info Share. So if you by the way, you're listening and you're, you're the type of person that attends conferences, truly one of the best that I've been to, in a long time Info Share. Anyways, I've been thinking a lot about my time at that conference, specifically as it relates to this topic, and we went live. So rather than just talking about going live, that big part of this is doing and I'm sure we're going to dive into this, but one of the things that we did as a group, you decided you had all these little we'll talk about this to the tripod and the gear and the software and all of this. We actually went live. You went live on LinkedIn. Mike went live, I believe on YouTube. And then I was like, well, I'm going to join this party and I went live on Facebook. And so much of this is just doing it rather than strategizing and planning and thinking maybe eventually doing it right. Yeah. Would you say that you got to do it?

Ian:

Oh, yes, you've got to do it. I mean, you know, I feel a little bit of a hypocrite here because I am the worst for overthinking things, and perfectionism and all this kind of stuff. So when it comes down to it, you know, you can think as much as you like, you can strategize as much as you like, but those things can actually get in the way they can actually stop you from doing it. And a lot of us are nervous. A lot of people are really afraid of pressing that go live button. And so you can come up with a strategy excuse and all I need to have gear. These are the right gear. But actually, you just need to press the button, try it out. And what's the worst that's going to happen? Well, actually, in all our cases, they weren't perfect live videos where they but we were connecting with our audiences. And we were doing it and every time we go live every time we do it, we're improving. We're learning things and connecting with our audiences.

So that's why, one of the reasons why I live like live video why I love live video. But the other thing is, once you press that go live button, it's so quick and easy. It's an amazing way of creating content quickly and efficiently. And this is something I'm so excited about. Because when it comes to creating content, I'm one of these kind of 10,000 word bloggers out there that spends probably two to three weeks writing a blog post and it kind of sucks all the life out of me. Whereas when you press the go live button you go live, it will probably take you 10 or 15 minutes. And then from that you can then repurpose into all your other types of content such as podcasts and blog posts, and you name it so, so many amazing things about live video.

Lauren:

So your introduction like your brand sentence was honestly one of the best brand sentences like self made brand sentences that we've ever heard. had on the show and honestly, that I've ever really heard outside of the show. So I'm curious to know like, how did you discover that live video was your thing?

Ian:

I would love to say I was at planned and I have a big strategy about this. But honestly, it was a bit of a bit of a mistake. The way I kind of like a bit of a fluke, it came across lots of different things I was playing with at the time I was. My background actually is I trained as a professional classical singer, here in Manchester. So my backgrounds music and performance. And then I started building websites, I was involved with technology, I created a blog, which became really popular and as you that kick started my opportunity to speak around the world at conferences on social media. But it wasn't really until three years ago when Facebook Live became a thing. And I didn't have access to it because I was an Android user at the time and also is it was really only available in the US and UK.

So I discovered a way of doing it from broadcasting from my computer using some software. And I wrote a very in depth blog post about it. And that went completely viral. I then created a course on live video. And I found that people were really, really wanting to find out all about how to go live in a really easy way. And I was writing these blog posts that made it easy for people to do so.

I then found myself a couple of years ago on stage in San Diego Social Media Marketing World singing with a group of other marketers, and I was thinking, isn't this amazing? I'm being able to bring my expertise in social media and technology with my passion for singing. And here I am on stage in front of two or 3000 people doing that. And then the realization that I can combine technology, my performance background, and also my teaching background, with live video, it all comes perfectly together. So I really do believe that this is what I should be doing. It's almost like this is what I've been put on earth to do to encourage people with confidence in front of the camera and with the technology, and also with the marketing and helping people convey their message, but confidence to their audience.

Phil:

You are such a perfect example of our formula for successful brand positioning, which is pairing something you love, absolutely love as a passion with something others need and are willing to put their time attention and money behind. I mean, you literally just described both parts of that formula. So that's, I mean, that is so exciting for us to have like such a great example of that. So I'm in Brazil right now, at the moment that we're recording this podcast, and I've given talks here over the last week about going live, what I do Ian and I think I might have done this in Poland when we were together, but I asked the audience to put their hand up if they post at least once a week on Instagram. Keep your hand up if you post at least once or twice a week to your Instagram stories. Then I say keep your hand up, if you go live at least once a week on Instagram, and typically out of a group of at least 100 people there is maybe one person, but usually zero people that keep their hand. And it doesn't surprise me. But it does kind of shock me, given how easy it is to make content on this platform. And right now this could change and I'm giving Instagram as an example, your audience gets notified when you're live, yet we pay for advertising to have that same effect on other platforms. It's shocking to me how many people still haven't taken advantage of this media creation format. So what are your thoughts on that still in 2019 and beyond a lot of people aren't doing it.

Ian:

There’s a lot of people doing it but they tend to be small number of people in the marketing the internet marketing world and and so I'm connected with a lot of these people. So I see a lot of people going live but he broaden that out. to other brands and businesses, and yeah, you're right, a lot of them are not going live because, well, I think they're scared. They're scared of pressing that button. It's the whole life aspect of it. That worried about them making a fool of themselves and and I call these live video syndromes. So it could be what I call feeling like an idiot syndrome you just worried about going on there, you fluffing your words, making mistake and looking like an idiot. So that there might be that maybe you classify yourself as an introvert and you're using that as an excuse not to go live.

Or maybe you don't like the way you look or the way you sound. So if you don't like the way you look, or it could be, you're coming up with loads of other excuses, such as the technology, you can't get the tech working. I mean, I could go on the imposter syndrome. These things that stop us from going live and, and really what you need to kind of realize is that most of us, including myself, even though I've done this such a long time, I still get nervous before I go Live. And I think that's a good thing. It's, it shows that I care.

But it's also a way that I, I've learned how to channel that nervous energy and adrenaline into my communication in front of the camera. So it's a case of, if you have that, then actually, that's a good sign that you then need to learn how to channel that in into your communication in front of the camera. And the only way you're going to do that is by starting off the first few videos that you do, you will feel really nervous. And actually, they won't be that great. And you may not have that many people watching you, but you got to start somewhere and then over time as and this is really the same with all types of content. But with live video, obviously, it's more scary, but the more times you do it, the better you're going to get and the less nervous you're going to get.

And so you just got to get started and there are loads of ways of getting started and Instagram is a great place. But you could go live on Facebook and just change the privacy settings or you can live in a private group, start off small play with Instagram stories, because that's another way of you getting used to getting in front of the camera. You're only 15 seconds long, and the only last for 24 hours, what's the worst is going to happen? So loads of ways of getting over that fear or not that you'll ever get over the fear but completely because it's there for a reason. But it's a way of channeling that you controlling that fear.

Lauren:

What opportunities do you think someone might lose, if they don't go live?

Ian:

Well, it's really a case of other people out there are going to be going live. And if you're not going live, then you're giving more airtime to other people out there. And there's something even more important than that. I think we living in a world now where it's not just enough to be to talk about our expertise anymore. I mean, people obviously want to be able to know that we know what we're talking about and that we're good at what we do, but it's also they want to know the real as they want to have a human connection. Everyone. And so putting your personality out there is so important, we need to build that trust. And this is so important whether you are a small business, a tiny brand or a big brand. Trust is so important and people want to communicate and they want to interact with you on a really human level. So, absolutely, going live enables you to show the real you to be more authentic and vulnerable. And it also allows your audience to connect with you. There's no other medium out there that offers the same level of ability to communicate to your audience communicating with you and interacting with you then live video. So if you're not doing that, then you're missing out on so much, so much about human connection between you and your audience. And at the end of the day, we want to be really engaging with our super fans. There's people out there that lovers are we want to be building more or growing more of our super fans out there and live video is such an amazing way. So it's not making plans to do that.

Phil:

I think that live video is probably arguably the best way to recreate the in person experience, which everyone knows is what I defined as the best branding. But I think there's no other way that more accurately simulates the experience we might have if we were together in real life. And that's my favorite thing about it. I also happen to just love video because, as you said earlier on, record it done. No worrying about editing, you don't need a fancy camera. You don't need fancy editing, you don't need gear, all of these things that the minute we create longer form content is kind of required. So but yet even still, as the person that preaches go live at least once a week, I'm that person. I still don't manage to do it. And I battle with this kind of like double standard, I guess of like, if it's a client then of course I have to deliver it but when I myself in my own client, I become second priority. Do you have any tips for that? How do I like own it? You know, I think a lot of people feel the same way as like soon as it's our own thing, we push it to the side.

Phil:

Pause pause pause folks Ian Anderson Gray bopping along with he's here and he's talking about live video I got one really not a singer. No, I do love a jingle though.

Lauren:

I hope that Ian takes that exact recording and uses it as an intro to his crazy popular YouTube video someday.

Phil:

Well, it see catchy and we just wrote your theme song. You're welcome. Well, so yeah, but what's interesting about yen is that he's an opera singer. Right. So like he he could take my jingle in an operatic video. That's really good. What I want is I want that jingle sung an opera. So that's your challenge again. So, okay, we paused our conversation with Ian to talk about valuable resources. Lauren Moore, give us a rundown.

Lauren:

All right on philpallen.co/resources this week. You don't just get one freebie, but you get two things to look forward to. The first is a blog post. You don't need to subscribe or anything that information is just out there for you to take in it's on five tips for going live on social media. So if you are convinced by the opportunities Ian has presented eloquently in this recording, go straight to Phil's blog because it's going to have everything you need in that blog post to actually go live successfully. And then the second thing is a worksheet download completely free and it is a going live checklist prepared. It's prepared by the going live expert Phil Pallen.

Phil:

So Well yeah, I mean, yeah, Ian's really the going live expert but he strongly inspires me. This was something I wanted to make quickly for people that are not as confident when it comes to clicking live. And I've made every screw up in the book I have you, you know had the wrong. Yes, I've had the wrong microphone. plugged in. I've had the wrong camera set. I've had no audio before. So I did a whole live and no one could hear me why if I like you Wi Fi, I think that was me literally. Well, you name it like it's happened. So I thought it would be smart to just walk through this little checklist so that you're feeling completely ready not just on the tech side, but also on the content. You know, three bullet points is all it takes to be able to talk about something, don't overthink it. This one page worksheet that I've prepared for you as in a checklist fillable PDF format will help you prepare but not over prepare, and instead do when it comes to doing Your lives. So I hope you find it helpful.

Lauren/Phil

Awesome. Let's get back to our conversation with Ian Anderson Gray.

Lauren:

Great little pitchy but I'm so sick of hearing the jingles. Let's come back to it.

Ian:

Before we come up with some thoughts on that, I just wanted to ask a question to you. Why do you think you don't go live every week? What What do you think it is that stopping you?

Phil:

I get distracted. I get pulled in lots of different directions. And I think that I lack probably the structure and the discipline to just do it.

Ian:

Yeah. Well, I think that's really common. I mean, these are the characteristics of a true entrepreneur, you know, you're kind of thinking of all these things that so many things are buzzing around your head. And I'm very similar to that I've come to the conclusion, the only way really is to put two things you need to know why you going live, the importance of going live and what you're going to get out of it.

And then second of all, which is the boring bit, you need to plan it, you need to put it in the calendar. So one thing that I found really, really helpful is with my latest show, and from that one show, I'm actually repurposing it into so many other pieces of content that you don't need to do this with all my video, but I'm just using this as an example. Because from this, I totally see why I'm doing it. So for my live show, and then repurpose that into a podcast. So I have another piece of content and then from that, and then turning that into a blog post. So I have somebody who is listening to it and turning that into show notes, which I then go in and add my own bits to it. So I've got that. And then from there, I've got Instagram stories and Instagram posts and Facebook messages, Facebook posts, and you name it for all from this live video that all I need to do is go live once a week, and actually in my case, I do a little bit more than once a week. But that's all I need to do.

So if you have a reason why you're going live, and it checks all those boxes, if it gives you so much more than you know why, and how important it is to going to be. And then the other thing that is, it's really important is to put it in the calendar. So I haven't quite sorted this out with my new show. But once once I because it's very new. But I'm going to be going live a particular day, sometimes every single week, I know that I'm going to be going live on Facebook on this type dates and time, I know that I'm going to be going live on LinkedIn live at this particular date and time, I know that I'm going to be going live on Instagram live at this date and time I now will know why I'm going to do it. It also helps if you bring it down. So if it's just you, you still need to it's even more important to schedule that into your calendar. And it's kind of like going to the gym. You know I've struggled going to the gym for years and years and years and it kind of didn't happen until I hired a personal trainer. Now I have to turn off to the gym because he's meeting there. And I don't want to, you know, I can't let him down. So it's the same way if you have a guest if you booking a guest maybe do this to begin with, and have a show where you've got a live video where you've got a guest and you know, you need to turn up. But if you don't have a guest, you still need to make sure it's in the calendar, and you need to turn up and remember your audience, they're waiting for you.

So probably the best thing to do, which is why I'd recommend that you do fail is get you in advance. So say to your audience, I'm going to go live next Tuesday at 3pm. Now that might kind of go against the fact that you like to be spontaneous, and there's certainly no no reason why you can't be spontaneous to do spontaneous lies throughout the week but at least have one scheduled live video every week that you know you need to turn up for and you know why you're going to do it. I love that.

Phil:

Yeah, I love that.

Lauren:

I think your idea and of scheduling a guest is brilliant, brilliant, and probably going to help a lot of people overcome the live going live hurdle. My question for you is for someone who isn't comfortable going live naturally or even, you know, showing their face naturally, if someone's starting from scratch, do you have any advice for them on how to like engage their audience find their audience develop content that their audience will respond to when they're really starting from square one?

Ian:

Well, in the way live video is no different to any other types of content. If you're creating content, whether it's a blog post or a podcast, you know, you can create live video content in the same type of content. So if you've written a blog post recently, why not take top three points on that and create a live video from it.

First of all, start small, don't try and produce like a two hour live video show that's that's going to end and see us. So just go live for three or four minutes and share three points on it. You may not at the beginning. If you're new to this, you may not get any live viewers you make a few but remember the original Maybe as the people that are going to watch later, I saw as I said before, the first place I'd start is play around with Instagram Stories get comfortable in front of the camera or a little bit more comfortable.

The other thing is, if you are have an Android phone, you can use Facebook live audio. So just get by going, clicking on a live, create a live video on your on your Facebook profile on your phone, then click on the three dots on the top right of your screen. And you should see an option for Facebook live audience so you don't actually have to show your face. unfortunates not available for iPhone users. But if you're an iPhone user, why not use Twitter live or periscope where again, you can use live audio so you don't need to show your face. And then the other option is just to broadcast to a small group of friends or in a in a private group and get confident and used to that. And then in terms of the content, as I say, just keep it simple. Keep it to three or four points. You don't need to go live for very long, and then just plan what you're going to say. So there's a little bit of a structure to in terms of what I do.

And the first thing is just start confidently. Don't worry about the technology. Just assume it's working and say greet, greet people who are watching the replay and say who you are. So for example, it was me, I'd say, Hello, I am so great here. Thanks so much for watching the replay. Today, I'm going to be talking about the three top ways you can improve your life videos, and then go into the content and show it that way. Hopefully, you'll start to see from my viewers, and then you can once you've shared your life content, you can then refer to them by name and ask them questions and things like that. Don't get too distracted. And then press the end broadcast button. I think a lot of people actually that they're scared of pressing, pressing the start broadcast button, but also afraid of pressing the end broadcast button. Don't go on too long. Just after 5-10 minutes, just press stop and you can always go live another time.

Lauren:

Great advice. Okay, Phil you can take it away with the advanced questions.

Phil:

Well, I thought yeah, maybe to round off our discussion. It would be helpful to hear some of the specifics because for example, Ian when we were together in Poland, I saw you had this great little contraption that you had your phone in, you were using some kind of software that I wasn't overly familiar with. So I don't know for me, some of those things motivate me to actually do it. And by the way, I agree with you, you don't need all the gear and all the fancy stuff to start. Instead, start small. And once you get to 10 live episodes, or 15 or 20, reward yourself with those upgrades. That's what we did with podcasting. But for those people who are like me, and I like to know, like, what's the software you recommend? What are the tools that you use that you might recommend? Give us a few of those em, because those are the things that get me excited.

Ian:

Yeah, well, I love what you just said that about rewarding yourself that is so important. So I totally believe in bootstrapping your live videos to start small, and then grow, build it up over time. Probably the easiest way. The best way is to start with your smartphone. Whether it's an iPhone or an Android phone, just start there. First thing I would look at upgrading before anything else is the audio. So invest in a microphone first because actually, arguably audio is more important than video. If people can't hear you, they're going to switch off. So something like the road level plus, which is the road smart lab plus, which is a lapel microphone that plugs straight into your iPhone or Android phone. That's it that will really enhance the audio or you could go for something like the road also do these shotgun mics, which you can put in front of you either on tripod or on another thing that I'm going to recommend, which is the thing that you saw me with in Poland, which is the iographer. And the iographer cases, if you just go to iographer.com it's a bit difficult to to describe on a podcast but it's basically a like a big plastic flap, I suppose that you put your, your phone in and it can be a lot more stability. So if you're walking around And you can hold this in your hands. And it creates a much more stable experience. But you can also put a microphone and a light on top of this. And so you have you effectively you've got this mobile Live Video Studio. And you can even put it on a little tripod as well it has explanted mounts at the bottom or at the side, so you can go portrait or landscape. So they're really, really good.

So I would say started start off with with a microphone, a tripod or the identifications. They're really good. And so that's what I do to begin with and just use the native apps. Now she wants to stay on on a mobile device or smartphone. And you and you have an iPhone, this only works on iPhones, I'm afraid, but it's the software is called switcher studio. So if you wanted to take things to the next level, is that the this is the tool that I was using in Poland that allowed me to stream live to LinkedIn live. And this is amazing. It kind of blows my mind what it can do. It's not particularly cheap.

If you do have to invest money into this monthly basis. But it is so simple. It gives you basically a live video CD, you have one phone or an iPad where you can control all the camera angles. So if you have one or two iPhones in front of you on tripods, you can change which camera you're going to use. So you can switch between them, you can add lower third graphic so you can put for the nice fancy graphic when you come, you're starting your broadcast and you can share your screen and do loads and loads of cool things like that. And that works with Facebook Live. It works with LinkedIn live, and Periscope and YouTube as well. So that's from your smartphone. Now if you want to take things to the next level, and this is what I particularly like the I like split testing for my computer. So this if you suffer on your computer, it's a lot easier to bring in guests.

So you can bring in guests using like a Skype or zoom and you can have you can bring them in from anywhere in the world. So just a really good interview shows but it's also good because you're able to download the video In a much higher quality, so if you're repurposing for later, you've got much better quality than just downloading it afterwards from from Facebook, and also allows you to highlight the comments on the screen as well. So people are leaving your comments, you can actually highlight them on the screen and then read them out to your life. So we'll learn this probably the easiest ones to get used to. So these are what I call web apps, and they want in your browser. So the two most famous are be live.tv. And one that I particularly like now is called stream yard female.com. And it does work in your browser.

If you want to bring in a guest you just give them a link and they just pop on. You can highlight comments on the screen. You can change the different layouts and really, really cool from that point of view. Now if you want to take if you want to download some software to your desktop, then they the the one that I really love is called ECAM live it's only available for Mac If you're a Mac user, I highly recommend he can live and you bring in your guests via Skype. And you can do things like highlights coming from the screen, you can say the video in HD, you can even and I wouldn't recommend this for beginners you can even have green screen. So if you have a green screen, you can make it look like a flying over the roof might happen while you're doing a live video.

Phil:

So that's where I thank you, I so appreciate you listing all of those because it gives people kind of creates that playground for people to get started. Even if you don't use those tools right away. Like I would keep it simple. You don't need the fancy stuff right away. But it is kind of fun to play with those or have something that you work towards as you start to get better. Really good tips and on this really good discussion around this. I'm hoping that people will kind of feel like how I feel right now which is like, just go and do it and treat yourself legitimately how you would treat a client for example, and really put it into your calendar, incorporate guests do what you need to do to show up at the gym show up to do your live broadcasts. It's very much the same thing. Thank you so much for spending time with us today on Brand Therapy and discussing this.

Ian:

My pleasure.

Lauren:

Thank you so much, Ian. You're just such a wealth of knowledge. So thank you.

Ian:

It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show.

Phil:

Okay, there we have a thank you Ian Anderson Gray for the for the great advice. Really good advice. And I think it's like what people need to hear right now because so many people are afraid or they don't prioritize the role of live video in their marketing or their businesses and their brands do not agree?

Lauren:

Ian was so convincing that he made me me want to go live. So I'm sure our listeners. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it'll happen, but I want it to happen for our listeners. So I really hope people take action. And I really, really hope that if people are feeling inspired they keep up that inspiration by going to philpallen.co/resources for our free worksheet going live checklist and our blog posts on five tips for going live.

Phil:

We're running out of time, but I want to know what you think. What did you think of our chat today with Ian Anderson Gray. So #brandtherapy is where you'll find us continuing the conversation. I am @philpallen.

Lauren:

I am @thelaurenmoore.

Phil:

If you liked this episode, then I have an idea. Go and leave a review five star five star in the iTunes Store. That would be great that helps other people discover this podcast that we work very hard to make. And that folks is all. A big big thank you to our guest Ian Anderson Gray in I like that. Yes, I see giving us great advice. We will see you back next episode and we look forward to it. Until then. I'm Phil.

Lauren:

And I'm Lauren.

Phil:

See you then.

Lauren:

Bye bye.