65. A photographer who knows how to capture personalities (f. Susan Yee)
Why is photography so important for your personal brand? 📸 Hosts Phil and Lauren meet with photographer Susan to discuss. Susan is one of Phil Pallen Collective’s go-to photographers, and she’s proven time and again that she knows how to capture the essence of her subjects. We drill into details about how Susan makes our clients feel at ease, the secrets for getting people to come out of their shell, and other industry must-knows for beautiful photos. If you’re in need of need pics (spoiler alert: you probably are!), this episode is for you.
Episode transcription
Phil:
Really quick before we started the episode we just launched something brand new called Deep Dives. This is where we take a particular topic next month content and dive deep in a group coaching environment. So strategy, help executing and group support from fellow entrepreneurs just like you. Only 10 spots per month. For more information, go to philpallen.co/deepdives now on to the episode.
Phil:
Hello there, welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I am Lauren.
Phil:
And we are your brand strategists today this morning, this afternoon, this evening, whatever time you're listening to this podcast. This is the podcast where we tackle branding or business challenges that total strangers call us and ask for some advice or we've started doing more recently calling experts to shed some light on some topics related to branding and business to hopefully give you some tangible tips that you can take away and use in your business. So that's us. Welcome.
Lauren:
I am so pumped for today's episode. I can't even tell you.
Phil:
So here's what we've done today. For today's episode, I explained that some episodes we have guests on and give them advice, usually, then, after a episode where we have a guest on that's asking a question, then we have experts. And today is an expert that we really really love. Her name is Susan. Lauren, didn't we sit down and go who are our very favorite photographers who we've worked with over the years? Who can we call Susan? Susan?
Lauren:
Yeah, it was exactly like that. Exactly.
Phil:
Susan has shot a number of our clients. And actually, if you've listened to a few episodes of this podcast, you know that photography comes up quite often. So we thought let's make a whole episode out of talking to one of our very favorite photographers. If we can start to understand how a photographer thinks, right when they're photographing you, when, for example now personal branding is something photographers are doing a lot of not just weddings, not just corporate photos, but now personal branding. We thought it'd be interesting to get the perspective of photographer today. So that's what we're doing.
Lauren:
Yeah. And I think before we get to the interview, Phil, I want to do something a little different. I think we should talk about quickly our experience with arranging photo shoots for clients. I mean, I don't want to pat ourselves on the back too much, but we've experienced a lot like, wouldn't you say there have been like, hundreds of photo shoots over the years there?
Phil:
Yeah, there's been at least 300. And what's interesting, I think the photography element of of the branding process tends to be the most vulnerable, the most personal, the most likely for clients to get hung up on things because it is personal. It's their face. It's very hard to be objective about how your face looks, you know? When you look at your own personal photos you go oh my god, I look dumb here. What was I doing with my arm? Why does my face look like that? Oh my God, my forehead is wrinkly Oh my God, my hair is gray. Those are the things that don't matter, right? They matter to you, because it's your face. You look at it every day you see the details.
But we as strategists, we look at more ambiguous types of things. What's the energy of the photo? What are you conveying in that photo through your energy, your facial expression, right? Photographers look for things like composition and all of that to make sure it's a good photo. But for us, we're focused on totally different things than you. It's interesting, isn't it?
Lauren:
Yeah, it's kind of contradictory that your photos aren't about you, but they're not. It's about the message that the photo as a whole is sending that you happen to be in. So when you think of shoots that went wrong, and as a disclaimer, there haven't been that many. But then of course, as you know, sometimes shoots don't go as planned. So what do you think went wrong when you think of those shoots?
Phil:
I would say possibly not enough preparation, not on our part because we have a very specific process we follow. I would say maybe, I don't know. Is it preparation? Or is it people overthinking it? I think overthinking it tends to be something that stops people in their tracks.
Lauren:
I agree. I agree,
Phil :
Wanting to over plan it is a problem.
Lauren:
Yeah, I think a lot of times when something feels planned, the more planned you are, the less organic the photos are. And it's that organic place where really the best content is created. So when you're planning your own photoshoots listeners, I would recommend don't worry about what poses you're gonna make, don't worry about what side of your face you want to capture, don't worry about any of that. That's the photographer's job. I would also say that sometimes when things go wrong, it can also be an environmental issue. Don't you think? I'm thinking of one client, we had that shot in that New York Airbnb that didn't have much natural light, you know, the one I'm thinking of?
Phil:
I do. Yep.
Lauren:
So, generally, for us natural, we find that natural light is kind of like that. That secret sauce that makes photos feel way more expensive and way more professional than otherwise. Of course, you can do a studio shoot But that requires more skill more like lighting knowledge by the photographer. So natural light is like a sure thing.
Phil:
I would also say these are all conversations that ideally you're having, before the photos are taken. Photographers can always weigh in on these types of things. So have these conversations before you go and shoot. Think about the possibilities, the hypotheticals the what ifs. And you know, if you're working with a photographer who has a lot of experience, chances are they've seen it all.
Lauren:
Totally, totally. So I guess, you know, let's let the pro do the rest of the talking. Shall we get to Susan?
Phil:
Let's do it. Here's our conversation with Susan Yee.
Lauren:
So, Susan, thanks for coming on today. We have the privilege of working with photographers around the world with for all the different clients that we have. But we've got to say like you are by far one of the best photographers that we work with when it comes to capturing photos for our client’s brands. So we wanted to have you on to talk about photos today and hopefully, our listeners could get some advice on what they should instruct a photographer if they want their own personal branding photos and if you have any advice on actually taking photos like capture personality, we'd love to hear it too.
Susan:
Yeah, absolutely. Well thank you for your kind words and for having me on here I'm excited to share.
Phil:
Well, we always say photography is a personal brands secret weapon. Every photographer is always like, amen. Yes, it's true. But really truly, I'd love your thoughts on this as well. But I believe that photography is seems to be the area where people skimp and shouldn't obviously you're a photographer, so your perspective is, like photography, photography, but maybe start to explore Susan how you use photography as a business tool.
Susan:
Well, I think photography especially nowadays with, you know, Instagram and everything is so visually driven with the internet and everything, I think photography is a really great way for people to kind of get visually captured by somebody or a brand and get a feel, you know, any type of art is kind of A different way of communication. And I think photography is just one way to communicate an idea, a mood, a feel, or a personality or just, it's just another way of expressing and capturing life as well as conveying a message. So I think, for a lot of brands and for a lot of people having great photos, especially ones that capture who you are or capture, the essence of what you're trying to put out into the world is really important and kind of, you know, it's like that quick seconds when people look at those photos and get a good idea of who you are and what you're all about.
Phil:
Love it.
Lauren:
When you see when you come across personal professional photos that people have taken, do you have any like pet peeves? Is there anything went like do you like really hate kind of like forced pose shots? Do you think? I don't know if it's shot in a studio, it's less effective. What are your thoughts about what could go wrong in personal branding photos.
Susan:
Well any type of photography, I think, what makes me cringe when I see photos and I don't always see it, but when I can tell that the subject or the people that are in the photograph, aren't 100% comfortable or themselves, if that makes sense, you know, they might be stiff or I mean, a lot of times people will come to me when they're wanting photos to get taken. They're just like, oh, I've never gotten photo taken before and you know, the beginning process when you're getting your photos taken, it's like uncomfortable and so I think when a photographer isn't able to get past that you can kind of tell in the photos where the client or the subject they feel, they just seem relaxed and comfortable. And I think that's when people will shine through when they feel like they can be themselves.
So when I see photos that are like that, you know, they don't look like they're totally relaxed or you know, I guess that's just me and that's just my style too. I'm personally not very super over directive in terms of you know, stand like this, pose like this, because I think that can force people into something that feels really unnatural to them. I tend to like to let them be. And I know that some photographers will pose to get the best angles. And that's obviously definitely what you want, for people to look their best, but I think I love to let people just kind of be themselves and watch. I tend to watch them and then I look for the best angles within what they already are doing, if that makes sense.
Lauren:
Do you have any advice on what people should tell their photographers so that they do get those photos that look more like themselves?
Susan:
Well, I think so not so much as what they tell the photographers so much as they find a photographer that they feel their best with or feel super comfortable with because I think photography is such an intimate thing actually, because you know, you're letting someone photograph you and for most of us, that can be really uncomfortable or it feels really vulnerable because you're kind of essentially getting like yourself frozen in time. And if you're thinking, Oh my gosh, do I look okay, do I look funny, do I look weird? Or do I, you know, do I look my best. And sometimes all those things can be in your head when you're getting photographed.
And if you can find somebody that can get you out of that you know, that you trust and that you feel like you can just be yourself and not worry about how you're looking or any of those things, then I think you'll get the best images because you'll just be you and you'll trust the photographer that will get the best images of that. So it's more of a match so much as finding the right person as opposed to like telling somebody what you want because if they don't already make you feel comfortable, then you can't really force it.
Phil:
That's so true. What would you say to people we come across people that are really uncomfortable getting their photo taken, even if they're confident speaking on stage or they can conduct a meeting in a boardroom like a pro, the minute their photograph, that's always I find probably the most vulnerable part of the brand, the branding process. What is your advice having worked with so many people on the ground trying to make them comfortable, what's your advice to people who are uncomfortable getting their photo taken? How do you kind of put them at ease?
Susan:
A lot of that, for me as a photographer is just one getting to know them, I always try and talk to them about small things like their day, and things like that, but as well as who they are. Especially when it comes to branding photography, I love to try and figure out who are you what are you doing? Obviously, you know, what are these photos for, but at the same time, what is your purpose, what are you driven by, and trying to infuse that into the photos and so it's a two way communication. I think between a photographer and the person getting photographed, it's a back and forth. I think it feels most uncomfortable when it feels like the person being photographed is just in a window or looking out and people are staring. But I think for me as a photographer, if I'm able to communicate back and forth to try and relate and kind of do that back and forth. So they feel like they're actually talking with somebody and that they can feel like they're relating with another human another person and not feel like they're staring into a camera and maybe tips for being able to feel comfortable in front of the camera. If you're not, I think a lot of that is just trying to potentially engage with the photographer, you know, maybe if they're not engaging initially, maybe you can ask the questions.
I've had a lot of clients who will just start asking me questions and I think you could start the dialogue too, because you know, if it shows that they're interested in me, that we can go back and forth and find common ground and that's kind of what it's like forming a relationship and when you're getting photographed trying not to get too much in your head because I think I think I mentioned this earlier. I think for a lot of people, they worry that they're they look okay that their hair is not flying all over the place or they looking slim and you know, like all these worries running through their head.
As a photographer, especially someone who's worked for a while doing this, I can tell when people aren't present. And when they're like running through a ton of thing to their head, because they don't, there's this look in their eye that they're just not here. So I usually try and help you will be present, enjoy this moment, be here, because I think it really gives presence to the image when you can see when somebody is like, engaged, as opposed to like, their head is somewhere else, like worrying about something or thinking about something else. So trying to be present, I think is a really good one, which is hard when you're feeling vulnerable, you know, in front of a camera, but trying to do that. I always tell my clients, take some breaths, take deep breaths, it re-centers you getting back to, you know, out of your head and into the present moment. That's a good one. And yeah, I think just mostly being present, trying to engage with the photographer engaging with the moment taking deep breaths and just having fun with it letting go. If you work with photographer that you trust, ideally you just not worry about these things and just let the photographer handle it. So yeah.
Phil:
Okay, I love Susan, by the way, how great is she? She's such a good photographer. And she's so sweet. But this is the moment where we take a pause from that conversation. We talked about the content we have queued up for you. This week beyond just this podcast episode. Lauren, tell us what we got.
Lauren:
So on philpallen.co/resources we've got a new blog post this week that's related to our interview with Susan. Now in this interview, we're focusing all on the shoot itself, but a big part of our job as strategists is actually after the shoot. It's evaluating the gallery of the photos that you had taken to choose the very best. So in this week's blog post, we're teaching you everything that we know about how to choose good photos, we're going to use real client examples side by side of two similar shots and help walk through our thought process of why we ultimately decided to go with one instead of the other. I'm really pumped about it.
Phil:
Me too. Do you know what also is really interesting about this is you and I can do it now almost interchangeably. So whether I'm choosing select from a gallery or you are choosing this legs from a gallery, they are like 98% the same I know which is interesting. It's interesting. So we clearly have some kind of science and today we're sharing that science.
Lauren:
Yes, definitely. So our goal is really that after you read this blog post, you'll feel more confident to be able to successfully choose photos after you get your own photo shoot, or if you do the shoot for another client.
Phil:
There you go. So you're going to learn it all today. We hope you find this useful. Let's get back to our conversation with Susan.
Lauren:
Fantastic and as a photographer, what is helpful for you to have from someone before photos? Like, do you want their preference on location? Do you want general direction on the different photos they want for their website? What do you need?
Susan:
Generally, yeah, we'll talk about location. Sometimes they'll ask if they have no idea like what type of backdrop they want, then we'll talk about like, Okay, do you want like something more nature? Do you want something more urban kind of bounce off of that? Sometimes, if they don't even know what they want for that? We'll have to go back to it. Okay. What are these photos for? What's the field that you want? What's the purpose of them? Especially for a brand? Who's your ideal client? What's the type of person that you want to reach? And what will they kind of maybe resonate with and that sort of thing as far as other things that you know, figuring out wardrobe.
We might talk about that a little bit. I always tell people like you know, where what you feel really good and because I think that also reflects an image. If you're wearing something that like, you're like, this looks really good, but I feel really uncomfortable in it, I personally can tell. To me, 100% is for the client to feel comfortable in front of me because I feel like that's where they can be themselves. I get the best images that way where they're just who they are. And they feel the best about these images too, because it's a true reflection of them as opposed to me putting them into something that they may not be and then that's, you know, what I really a really big, important philosophy for me as a photographer, but yeah, like location, maybe wardrobe.
Phil:
What about props?
Susan:
Yeah, like, I'll ask especially if they're doing something specific, like you know, if they're musician and they want might want their instrument or something like that. We can talk about that, and how to use it and that's the thing will definitely bring that along. But yeah, and I just felt like, you know, bring a variety of things. And usually the day of is when I figure okay, I think this will go to ball together and bringing options is good. And then we kind of the day of I usually kind of like go through those things, and I put things together and sticking with it.
Phil:
You know, it's funny because we tell people the same thing as you and we've never actually talked talked about this even though you shot a number of our clients with a camera and not a gun. Got it? Oh, I'm sorry. Oh my god Susan fake laughs at my very bad joke. That's what just happened. Susan, we tell people the same thing we tell them look you're like wear something that makes you feel like a rock star. End of story. If that means going to Nordstrom and getting a brand new outfit and then returning it the next they have a great return policy ha no. Just grabbing something from your closet that you already have like what would you wear in front of 20,000 people what would you wear on a really important day? And I like that you don't tell people specifically what colors to wear and all that kind of stuff. Although people generally do ask right avoid patterns avoid red, right? Do you avoid red or no?
Susan:
I don't avoid red. Generally, I will say you know wear it if it feels good. And it kind of depends on if a regular good on them. Because it can be but I think it can be really distracting, especially for a brand unless they want to be like that pop of color or something like that, but I generally I do say neutral. I usually tell people like, maybe stick with neutrals, nothing too bright, no neon, but you know, it's not work because I don't want to like restrict them too much. Usually if they do have like bright colors in their selection, I just may not pick it and let that I really still drawn that it'll work.
Phil:
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think we've done well here to talk about photography and conversation without actually showing anything. Obviously, we'll do something different in this contest at the end, Susan, after we let you go, we’ll actually refer people back to a post where we share some of our favorite photographs of our clients, which will include some of the work that you've done for us. Yeah, really good little little chat here. Is there any kind of any anything that we didn't talk about anything, anything else that comes to mind that you would want to share with someone who's trying to figure out how to get photos for their brand? Any other thoughts are we pretty much covered it?
Susan:
I feel like we've pretty much covered it and especially what I love working about you guys is that you are so personality driven. And I think not a lot of branding companies focus on that especially like I work with a few and you guys are so good about like, you know, making sure that it's really personality driven and more lifestyle as opposed to like, you know, just a normal headshot. And I think that's why I really love working with you guys because it aligns so much with how I work. And I think that those type of photos that if for a personality driven type photo, you know, like what I was saying before, feeling comfortable finding the right photographer that you feel really good with, obviously you want the right style that fits with your brand, but I think to get the kind of images where you feel like yeah, that's, that's totally me, I think is you know, finding the right person being present when you're getting photographs, feeling comfortable, trusting and being able to keep one thing.
One thing I did mention earlier was actually sometimes it helps me gain photograph is to keep in mind your purpose. That may sound kind of weird, but I did bring this up with I think Brad, or Brett was I was? Yeah, I kind of tried to talk to him about what is your purpose in life? What are you driven, you know what's driving you, and kind of keeping that in mind when you're getting photographs, because I can tell when people heads are in a certain place, that when they're going to flicker off, if they're not here, if they're present. And if they're thinking about something very, like, that's what I would say, I'm not a mind reader.
But when they're thinking about something where I'm like, okay, think about what's driving you or something like that. I can tell their head, there's, you know, there's something going on in their head and it reflects in the image. So I think it's really great to that's a good one to do if you're wanting to have images that go along with your brand and your purpose and whatnot, is to kind of have that actually thinking about that when you're getting photographed, which can be hard if you're feeling subconscious so it's like a whole process of getting out of your head and then getting your head into the right headspace if that makes sense. So Yeah, I think to get those types of images, all those things could really help.
Phil:
I love it. Great advice, Susan. We knew we could count on you. We appreciate the few minutes that you've hung out with us on Brand Therapy and thanks for this and for all the great work you do for us we really appreciate you.
Susan:
Yeah, hopefully I'm hoping that it helps you you know you guys as well as you know your listeners and finding and getting great photography for their brand.
Phil:
Love it. Thank you so much and we will chat with you soon. Have such a good day and such a good weekend.
Susan:
You too as well. Bye.
Phil:
Awwwww, my normal side that comes after our conversation. But this is a good one. I really enjoyed that chat with her. I don't know. I think it's interesting to hear the perspective of a photographer because you and I sit in the middle right between the client and photographer. And so it's and we put a lot of trust, by the way, the photographers like Susan, so it's cool to hear, you know, her take on it all.
Lauren:
Totally. And I would make the bold claim that it is impossible to have a good personal brand without good photos. Don't you agree?
Phil:
I agree. Yeah, I agree. I think even if you have a killer brand identity and an awesome website, without some kind of photo representation of you, it will feel like there's something missing. Honestly, I mean, in 2020, I'm sorry, but you cannot have a brand that doesn't have an element of humanization. And that's probably your face, honey, probably your face.
Lauren:
Definitely your face. I'm not even I'm gonna go there. I'm saying you need photos. If you are listening, and you haven't had photos taken in the past year, change that immediately. And if you need help, go to philpallen.co/resources we've got a whole bunch of photography related guides for blog posts that can help you when you're getting new photos taken.
Phil:
We do we keep some of our very favorite freebies and downloads there. So go there, check it out, you're going to find something useful. If you've enjoyed this podcast episode by the way, make sure you leave us a review that really seriously helps people discover us when we work really hard to make every single week for you to learn. Leave us a review on iTunes Brand Therapy on social media. I am @philpallen. Who are you Lauren Moore?
Lauren:
I'm @thelaurenmoore of course. Oh, I don't even need to say because everyone who's listening right now already follows me. Let's be real.
Phil:
Oh my god. Let’s continue the conversation yes, with Lauren's fans, that would be you. Let's continue the conversation on social media and we'll see you back for the next episode of Brand Therapy. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. See you next time.
Lauren:
Bye.