48. An academic who wants a sales pitch
When you’re an expert in many things, how do you own an area of expertise? 🤓 In this episode, the hosts meet with Pragya, an academic, speaker, think tank owner, mental health champion, and workplace advisor. As Pragya continues to build a name for herself, she wants a quick way to encapsulate her work while creating intrigue. For anyone who’s got a lot on the go, this episode is for you.
Episode transcription
Phil:
Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
And we're brand strategists who help people all over the world in all different industries with all different kinds of challenges related to their brand. We're happy to have you here, you picked a great episode.
Lauren:
This episode is a really great example of how no matter what industry you work in, you need to know how to sell yourself. Wouldn't you agree Phil?
Phil:
100% it doesn't matter if you're selling a product, if you're selling a service, you're in part selling yourself even if you're not in sales. Right? An academic is a perfect example of someone who has a lot of knowledge, you know, on topics that I don't know anything about. But what I do know in this job, regardless of where you come from or where you're going, you have to sell. And so today we help our guest with this exact challenge.
Lauren:
Yes. And if you're a really eager student, I don't know who that is, who's listening to our podcast, but if you do not know how to sell yourself, I would recommend it. Like take note of the questions that our guest is asked in this episode and really thoughtfully think about your own answers because this might, this kind of lays out really the blueprint of the exercises that Phil and I do with clients to help them figure out how to position themselves. So hopefully it's helpful.
Phil:
And here you thought you were just going to have some listening material, but now you have homework. You can take Lauren for that, but let's get right to it so you can get studious. Here's our conversation with Pragya.
Pragya:
So I'm Pragya and my biggest challenge at the moment is how to reconcile the different parts of my base business as a multi-hyphenate, multi passionate, whatever you might term it and how to brand it so that it's, it's very clear to the audience. That's my biggest challenge at the moment.
Phil:
Great. I'm glad you brought this challenge to us. This is brand therapy. So, you know, we get to do all the work you bring us to challenge and then we'll work together on this to make sure you've got some clarity on this by the time we, hang up the phone. Sound good?
Pragya:
Fantastic. Fantastic. It sounds really good.
Phil:
Tell us a bit about you and then some of your goals. We don't have to hear a whole long story, but if you could just keep it, you know, a few sentences so we understand your background. We'll start to understand what those multi-hyphenate titles are that you're juggling. So tell us a bit about that.
Pragya:
So yes, so I have been an academic for a long time, but then I started a creative studios. I have a creative studio and I have a social enterprise, which is about creativity and mental health, which brings kind of gift boxes and subscription boxes. And then a large part of my work is also consultancy and speaking and writing as an author. And as a freelance writer, I write a lot about diversity and inclusivity for Forbes and um, for Huffington Post as a parent and write about feminist parenting about women today. And I founded and organized a Ted X and I’m now doing a CD with events this year about gender equality and women's rights. And I'm also writing a book for Bloomsbury this year. So those are the different aspects of things that I do. And I provide diversity consultancy and talks and both shots about sexism and also mental health is a big part of my wellbeing is a big part of my book with the social enterprise as well.
Phil:
Okay, that's wonderful. And now I have another follow follow up question to that. Yeah. And this is probably more challenging, although it is challenging to list up all of these different kinds of things you do every time you have to introduce yourself, right? You're like this, this and this. But if I was to ask your best friend, tell me about Prague. Yeah. I said, tell me about her. What would you say? What would, what would your best friends say about you? They wouldn't list out all the things. How would they describe you in a few? In a few words,
Pragya:
She would probably say she is very passionate about what she does and is a feminist and yeah, so I suppose that kind of brings everything together.
Phil:
Interesting. Interesting.
Lauren:
I'm curious to know more about your studio. How does it live within the ecosystem of everything else that you do?
Pragya:
So basically, because I was a senior academic. I took a break from academia for a while and then started doing more print making and I was undergoing a lot of mental health of anxiety and depression and all those issues. And everybody used to tell me, you should sell more of the art that you do. My background is in architecture where I used to do all the sketching and painting anyway. So I started doing printmaking and it kind of came about. I wasn't like looking to start a business at that point, but the creative to the came about and I really, it really could you from there and became very successful. And so that's where the link between creativity and mental health started and I started doing more research into it and that's where the social enterprise started in 2017 the end of 2017 which is all about supporting creative, encouraging creativity and supporting mental health and the link between those two. So that is the whole background.
Lauren:
Great. Great. I'm so glad you said that because now everything kind of clicked into place for me. Because it's clear to me now that you've got the academic foundation to really understand the human brain that's clear and that everything that you do now is fuels towards making people better through creativity, helping people reach their potential and be as healthy as possible through creative means in healing, which is what drove you to open up the studio. Does that make it feel right to you?
Pragya:
Yes. And the whole thing about trying to be my most authentic self and being a parent, the whole feminist and talking about diversity, inclusivity as a woman of color and the whole, all that kind of came from it about how to make a better place and how we can empower the next generation to be better. To talk about equality and talk about diversity and talk about mental health and all those kinds of things are linked for me, but I don't think they come across in the brand.
Phil:
Well you know why? Because it's a lot to juggle and it's not at your fault. You're very well spoken. Yeah. You've got a really interesting story. You communicate very well, very powerfully and this is why I'm not surprised you're working in the speaking arena. I think what, what we're assessing here is that your brand, when asked this question or let's just say even to introduce yourself or to write us, you know, a headline or a, what's it called? A byline on your Forbes. You have to say every, every job title you juggle. I almost think this is a case where actually every job title or every area of focus or every specialty, whatever you want to call it, is a sub brand. But I think where Lauren is going with this and she's the right one to help you on it, there's gotta be an overarching through line connector, something, a descriptor, a way that we can communicate who you are in a few words instead of having to do it in a few sentences. That's kind of the challenge. So we'll explore that. Lauren, do you agree with that?
Lauren:
I do. I do because there's so much that you do and it's beyond impressive that I feel like if someone is asking you about yourself, you almost need that cushion, that sentence. To sum it all up before you get into specifics, it helps to add a little bit of a buffer and space and it makes your accomplishments all the more impressive and digestible. So I'm thinking something, I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile right now and I really like it. I really like your cover photo by the way. The colors are super nice. But, I've almost, I kind of whipped up a, a little sentence that I think could be a starting point for figuring out how to describe what it is you do. So something along the lines of, I'm a speaker, writer, consultant and academic who helps people heal and achieve through creativity.
Pragya:
Okay. Yeah, that sounds good. That kind of brings the different aspects together. Absolutely. I always wonder about how to, I mean, yeah, putting creativity right up front is pretty good because that's what my Ted X talk was about, about creativity. But I don't know if, if that brings in the whole kind of gender and feminism aspect of it in it as well or not, or if that's important. That's what I struggled with sometimes.
Lauren:
Well, let's talk about your efforts with, with improving equality in the workplace. So when, if a company is hiring you to talk about how they're trying to improve the way that they treat women in the workplace or being more inclusive and improving their diversity efforts, what is your advice rooted in creative solutions? Like, what kind of advice would you give?
Pragya:
So I do seminars on unconscious bias, bias training about how to evaluate and know your own biases. So it's more interactive hands on workshop. It could be a talk introducing them to unconscious bias because not many people might have taught about it before about the, beyond the biases that we know and understand. And even in the most open minded people, we carry some prejudices and stereotypes without realizing that sometimes. So that's the kind of basis of it. And that's part of my book that I'm writing, about unconscious bias and what happens in our brains. And so the bias trainings around that, and it's, it's so it can be rooted in design solutions, but it can be rooted in actually just changing the mindset and putting in strategies, tips and tools into operations, which can help people tackle that during the hiring process or during every day in the workplace.
Lauren:
Got It. Okay, that makes sense. So in that case, let's take it a step further. So not only are you an expert in creativity, but beyond that you're an expert in the human brain and creativity and you know, biases and all of the things that come with being human are all associated with the brain. So what if we reshaped your sentence to be more like I'm a speaker, writer, consultant and academic who helps people and organizations improve through an understanding of the human brain.
Pragya:
That sounds fantastic. Oh Wow. Thank you. Yes, that's good.
Phil:
Well that's why you have us, that's why you called in, but actually I want to point out something interesting. Part of why this is working is that you are being very open to exploring the way that this is positioned. That's why this is working. So you know, we start somewhere, we work shop at, we consider what is it missing, how could we incorporate that and have a conversation around it. Your openness to explore how we sum it up and be specific I think is making this successful. I have a question. What was your thesis in?
Pragya:
So my Phd again was very interdisciplinary. It was geography, geospatial mapping. But it did discipline with psychology and spatial cognition and philosophy and computer science about how we understand places and how we map and more than places and sense of place. So yes. So that's where I've always been kind of behind between different disciplines and boundaries and exploring the cracks between different bones and disciplines as well, different boxes. So that's where I suppose looking outside the boxes,
Phil:
It's really impressive how well rounded you are. I have another question. When you think about your legacy, something that you will leave with this world, people that you will have an impression on, if you had to pinpoint what you want that legacy to be, what would it be? How would you describe that?
Pragya:
Oh Gosh, I never thought of it like that. Um, I didn't know. Make the world a slightly better place than I found it.
Phil:
I love it. I love that. Simply. I love the simplicity of that statement. I would love for that to be on the about page on your website. I love that.
Pragya:
Oh, okay. Oh Great. It doesn't sound very pretentious, does it?
Lauren:
No, no. It sounds like there's purpose. There is purpose and passion behind the work that you do. I mean, obviously it's clear from your accolades that you love what you do, but I think, I think knowing that you're taking these steps to improve the world, not just to keep yourself busy. I think that that really, um, grounds what you do.
Pragya:
Okay. Thank you. I hope it's, yeah, glad it makes sense a little bit, so, yeah, that's good.
Lauren:
I mean, I certainly probably if I read your thesis wouldn't understand three more than three words, but you're, you're doing an excellent job of articulating the intricacies of what you're an expert in.
Pragya:
Thank you. And I'm sure you will understand. I hope it was, I mean, yeah, it sometimes it can be quite obtuse, the academic words, but hopefully it can be sympathetic.
Phil:
I'm sure. I feel like you're very good at taking complicated ideas and being able to communicate them in a clear way. I think it's interesting that we've arrived at a brand sentence in under 20 minutes. That's pretty impressive. Good job, Lauren Moore and good job also for helping and giving us material to work with. I think because we've got some time, I would love to also straighten out what your sub brands are and I think people will benefit from listening to this exercise because yes, you've got your brand sentence and that sums it up in one sentence. But then what are those verticals, categories, pillars of expertise and for every brand the sub brands are a little bit different.
I might, for example, if I'm a travel agent, my sub brands might be the areas in the world that I focus on or if I'm a travel blogger or an international business, maybe it's the offices where they're located or maybe it's the process. I often describe our branding process in three steps, position your brand, build something to show for it and then promote it in that order. And that's very much what I would consider a sub brand. So let's explore what those sub brands are. Lauren, right away. What do you think? Where's a good place to start on that exploration based on what you've heard?
Lauren:
That's a good question because there's so much, well, I think being right like I imagine sub brands as being like different pages of a website. So I would imagine, writer, being on one of the pages and it would compile all those incredible publications you write for and then, speaker, where you could talk about how you work with companies and through workshops and, and these different um, conferences. I'm trying to think, a founder might be cool, like a founder and to show that you're a founder of your studio.
Pragya:
Entrepreneur. I know it's suppose because I'm a social entrepreneur and I'm a creative entrepreneur. It could be combined in both I would say.
Phil:
I was thinking of the word advocate as well.
Lauren:
Yes.
Phil:
Because it insinuates a bit more social good or like cause drive entrepreneurs a bit like I start businesses. It's just such a loose term. You agree, right?
Pragya:
But it makes this makes anything good sense because I have been putting off my website because I couldn't really figure out how to divide the different pages on how to actually blinded. So it makes sense to have these verticals that you're talking about is really useful.
Phil:
Yeah, and I can give you reference for a brand that is still so awesome. Years after we did it. I think in part because the client we worked with was as open to exploration as you are. Her name is Michelle Wodynski. Michelle is an attorney, an entertainment attorney, but she's so much more than just that. She's a mom, she's a widow, she's a comedian. She is also multi- hyphenate. And we used this multi-hyphenate to actually inspire the layout and design of her website. So when you go there, you see beautiful photography that's designed around all of these areas where she's an expert. And she's active and made a page for each one of those terms. And then a contact page that you can get in touch with her. And I believe, if I remember correctly, it's been a few years a blog where she can continue to share thoughts and ideas. So that might be an approach for you as you think about putting this all together on a website.
Pragya:
Yeah, I would certainly have a look. It sounds like that. Yes, absolutely. And you were talking about advocate, writing, speaking, yes. I think that's, I don't know if consultancy should be part of the speaking or should be a separate link. Yeah. So that's something I need to consider about the board, the different sub brands.
Lauren:
Yeah. And where can consolidate too ,it depends on the brand. Like if someone's just starting out and is wanting to show legitimacy or show potential, usually we'll try to make some more sub-brands, then we might think, but for you, because you have so much, we need to consolidate where possible. So that way there's a greater chance of people engaging with every part of your site.
Pragya
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you.
Phil
Also important to know which ones set you apart from others, so I actually love academic in the brand sentence because not everyone can call themselves an academic. Everyone can call themselves a writer. That doesn't really indicate at what level or what training they have to qualify themselves. Obviously they can click it and see that that you know you've written for some notable publications, but academic, I think it's important because it shows your credibility and then advocate as well I think is also interesting. That's not, that's a more creative kind of title that most people maybe wouldn't use. We hear consultant, we hear strategist, so I like ensuring that some of those more creative ones that set you apart are definitely included in that brand sentence, everywhere you put it.
Pragya:
That's brilliant. That's fantastic, Phil. That's a really great insight. Thank you.
Phil:
Well, thank you. I mean, like I said, you've given us a lot to work with. Now that you've got a brand sentence, it also might be worth considering what you do next. A lot of times people will take their brand sentence, they'll put it so it's nice and clear in the middle of their homepage what we would call above the fold. So before they have to scroll anywhere, make sure that sentence is visible. So if they end up bouncing off that home page, they will still know who you are and why people should care. You've answered that sentence with a little bit of help, but you've answered that, that question, both of those questions with one sentence, which is really awesome. So then, on your about page you can go into more detail on your story, not too much detail because the more detail you give, the less likely people will read it all. And then you can update your social media bios. So everything from LinkedIn to Instagram, you know to Twitter, you've got usually a limited amount of space on each platform to tell people who you are and why people should care. A lot of times we see people taking their brand sentence and keeping something that's consistent, you know, across all the platforms. But then also if you've got room adding in a little bit of personality, you know, so that it's unique to that platform.
Pragya:
Yeah, something quirky would be great. Yeah. Something that sets you apart. I think I do struggle with that, kind of, the bio's on my Twitter because it feels like, yeah, I know sometimes kind of get lost about what I need to put in there and what I shouldn’t. I have links to other pages that I have or should I not have links to pages, you know, I just want a very simple one, but this could be a really good way to go about it. So yes, sounds great.
Phil:
I think is a good starting point. If you want, you could put this everywhere and then challenge yourself to think, how could I include something that's unique about what I do on this platform or how I use this platform or the value people will get from me on this platform. For example, on Instagram I post more travel photos and use it kind of like a diary. So I, I make a little funny comment about traveling and trying to keep me in one place. So I don't have that on LinkedIn because I'm only talking about travel on LinkedIn. So just kind of think about the platform, how you use it, what people get from you on that platform. That's a good starting point.
Pragya:
And who, how am I going to attract my audience and how are they going to engage with me, what aspect of my brand they're going to engage with. And then I have to start thinking about the meeting this as well, which is another issue for me at the moment because then made English has to be segmented because of the different interests as well. So yeah, that's another step, next step to think about.
Phil:
Yep. Well we have more recently taken that step by moving from MailChimp to a platform called convert kit, which allows you to use some of the more advanced features. You can actually tag people based on interests and that tag is stored. Yeah. And it's associated with that particular profile. So I will give you a very quick example in our last few minutes here, but let's say you want to send an email blast about a course you're launching or a talk you're doing in a particular location. Let's say it's in Liverpool. You could say, you know, click here. If you're within driving distance to Liverpool, click here if you're not, but might appreciate something, you know, an online, a way to consume this content as a quick example, and then right away we can see people who live in the UK or who don't. You know, that's like a really quick example, but then forever they're tagged with that information that can become very useful when you're targeting later.
Pragya:
That's fantastic. That's a really good, great example because I would have never thought about actually starting there. Yeah, that's really good because then you actually targeting to the people and your conversion rate is better and all those things. That's fantastic. That's a really good example. Thank you.
Phil:
I'll give you an example. I'm going to ask people who are interested, on my list. I'm going to say who's interested in more information on that Instagram and that way I have that to be able to market specifically to them. I could even go so specific and say, last week you told me you were interested in learning more about Instagram, well, have I got something for you. You can even customize that message to them. We've done it to sell in the past where tell the list about a program and I can see who clicked the link to learn more about the program. And I can even say a few days later, I know you clicked the link, but I know you didn't buy it. Here's the link to schedule a call to see if it's a good fit. That's another example. Yeah.
Pragya:
Yes. I think there's so much potential there and I really need to think about, yeah, but it's a good place to start to think about these and think about the different brands and, but it's good to know that I can't do this because I always struggle with this whole thing around you need to niche down and did you do that? And I've always struggled with that. So yeah, it's a good, it's a good actually really they used for to know that actually this can be done so
Phil:
We're excited for you. Yeah, we're excited for you. Thank you for taking time to chat with us and explore this and also just being so open to how to sum all of this up if you will.
Pragya:
Thank you so much. It's been really great. Thank you for taking the time and for having me on here. Thank you Lauren and thank you Phil.
Phil:
Thank you. Our pleasure. We look forward to keeping in touch with you and chat soon.
Pragya:
Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Bye.
Phil:
Awwwww, another sigh! But honestly and sometimes I do that, I put you on the spot. I'm like work monkey work, but honestly I need though, but that's a classic case where someone's going to just say it out loud and hear from a stranger. I mean we're qualified strangers, it’s what we do for a living. That's why we have a podcast, but hear from a stranger kind of like holding the mirror up in front of them. I've used that analogy before, but tell us who you are. Say it out loud, and t
hen we just put that mirror back and say, okay, this is who you are in a simpler way. It's just about creating a hierarchy of what needs to be said first without saying it all. Because by the time we say it all, we've lost our attention, you know?
Lauren:
Yeah. I, it wasn't clear to me at first, but it became very clear that everything she does is rooted in the human mind basically. And she's helping people understand the natural inclinations in their own brains more and that sort of the driving purpose behind the work that she does, even when it comes to like, you know, a creative studio. She's helping people disconnect and understand their creative side more. So, I don't know. It was pretty cool.
Phil:
Really impressive. And her openness, I know I've said it a few times, but her openness to just explore that and receive your ideas and think about them and she just so positive. I really loved that about her.
Lauren:
Me Too. Me Too.
Phil:
So it even gave us time to talk about sub brands, which I thought was useful. We, it's not the first time we've written a brand sends on the podcast, but with her being so open and clear with her communication, we're not only able to write that one sentence that's so hugely important to make people, especially online, understand who you are. We also had time to explore sub brands and not example of Michele Wodynski. Still one of my favorite projects probably hasn't updated her website in ages, but doesn't even matter. It's still photography, branding, makes that project really great. Lauren: Yeah, that's pretty timeless.
Phil:
It is. Yeah. I'd love to hear what you think. Did this maybe give you clarity on your brand if it's a multi-hyphenate. Hopefully it has. It makes your life easier if you don't have to list out every job title, especially if they aren't connected. There's gotta be a way to consolidate where possible. Prioritize, create that hierarchy. We'd love to hear from you. I'm @philpallen.
Lauren:
I'm @thelaurenmoore.
Phil:
And we always say, if you take the time to listen to our podcast, take a few extra seconds and let us know, tag us, tweet us. A lot of times I retweet those compliments and if you have a few extra minutes, we'd love if you could go to the iTunes store and leave a review because that helps other people discover this podcast that we work hard at it. We hope you've enjoyed it and learn from it and found it useful as it applies to your business. And we'll be back with another episode very soon, new challenge, new therapy session. That's basically it. We'll see you back next time on Brand Therapy.
Lauren:
Bye Bye.
