66. A go-getter who wants to do it all
Is it possible to brand yourself when you want to do it all? Hosts Phil and Lauren have their opinion, but we'll let you decide after listening to this episode! Our guest Ana, a lawyer based in Colombia, loves to help people in any way she can. However, Ana is worried that branding herself as a lawyer will close her off to work opportunities. Our (arguably) most controversial episode yet, this is a must-listen for anyone who doesn't know where to draw the line between your personal hobbies and your career.
Episode transcription
Phil:
Well, hello there. Hello you, welcome to Brand Therapy, the podcast where we help all kinds of people out there with their business or their branding challenge right here right now on the phone for about 25 minutes we chat it through where every guest is satisfied with some advice that we leave them with. I am Phil Pallen.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren Moore.
Phil:
And we are both in the spirit of Valentine's Day. Are we not Lauren Moore?
Lauren:
It's around the corner. Love is in the air.
Phil:
Here's the real question. Are you my valentine?
Lauren:
Oh god, this again, this is sort of funny. If you check our reviews on iTunes, everyone acts as if we are a couple, have you noticed?
Phil:
It's true. Those two, I love their chemistry someone said this.
Lauren:
I know. It's so funny.
Phil:
That's true I go look at the reviews on a sad day just to cheer me up. Someone talked about chemistry. No. Okay. It's not 12 years. That's an exaggeration. So I might actually believe you, but how many times do we actually see each other in realize per year?
Lauren:
Now it's once once a year.
Phil:
Better enjoy it!
Lauren:
Don't you think?
Phil:
Yeah, I'm gonna be once now.
Lauren:
Yeah, I'm gone.
Phil:
You're gone. If you don't know Lauren's moved to Vancouver. I am who knows where I am Rio de Janeiro baby. Anyways, so we don't see each other physically. But it sure sounds like we're there together. And that's the illusion we want you to feel.
Lauren:
I think mission accomplished.
Phil:
Mission accomplished.
Lauren:
Chemistry is alive and well.
Phil:
So okay, this is a good episode, but actually, can we, in the spirit of sidetracking, the conversation with Jim doing quite well in this episode, can we talk about something exciting? If you follow me on social media, you would have known that I was heavily promoting this before it happened. But 2020 we decided to do something new. Rather than just branding people in big projects over the course of months, we launched this new program called Deep Dives. And it's been really fun. With 10 people, entrepreneurs, from all over the world for three weeks, one hour a week, we dive deep on a particular topic. So they get the strategy, they get the execution piece that's our focus is like making sure that people are learning but then actually doing and then they also get group support. We have a little closed group where we continue the conversation after that hour each week, and I know, yes, I'm promoting it right now, because I'm talking about it, but I'm just so happy with how it's going. Are you not so happy with it?
Lauren:
Totally. No, I'm thrilled. And the reason why I like it is because there are so many mastermind programs out there that you can join that you can learn a lot from, and that's wonderful. But the commitment expected when you join one of those things is usually pretty extreme. So what I love about the Deep Dives is it's like in and out your there's a topic you want to learn about, you will learn about it in detail, but it's not going to derail your entire life. And it's only for three week period. So love it. Going great. Super into it. Hope we do a lot more.
Phil:
Exactly. We've gone and done the work for you so that you don't have to sift through hours of nonsense. We're giving you the best info distilled in a very short, punchy little period of time. We're obviously closed for February. We're focusing this month on content, but our next one is going to be about SEO. You heard it here first. It's true like I actually haven't really formally announced that. So if you want in, if you have a Squarespace website and you want in our next Deep Dives, which is all about SEO keywords to promote your website and drive website traffic, let us know. Let us know if you want in and we'll let you in. Now it's time to talk about the podcast sorry about my little sidetrack. Do you know what we have up this week?
Lauren:
I would argue that this episode's theme is sidetracking. The guest is going through I think what everyone goes through in their careers where they want to do it all. They want to do it all. They are a yes person opportunistic, which is fantastic, especially when you're starting out in your career. But when you want to do it all your message is diluted. So we get into that with our guest. I think it's a good episode. If you stick around to the end. I actually get pretty harsh. I play bad cop.
Phil:
You do? Well guess what, we're not here to say yes every day. And actually people call us and they want our help, but actually they don't want our help. What they really want is us just to agree with what they're doing. This is kind of the case of that. She’s so sweet and so great. We're so happy to have this time with her. However, we didn't agree with everything. And we weren't afraid to say it. Shall we get to this episode?
Lauren:
Let's do it.
Phil:
Really selling it over here. This is our conversation with Ana.
Ana:
Hi, my name is Anna Maria. And my branding challenge is that I really like to multitask. I have different jobs, different activities. And I actually enjoy not focusing too much on things in that direction. I have different jobs, different contracts doing multiple things at the same time. But that is like a contradiction to what most people thought which is you have to focus on something or becoming an expert. And I don't know how to, I don't know, frame my area of expertise. If I am a serial multitasker.
Phil:
Well, great. We're so happy you're here with us in Brands Therapy. We're going to tackle this challenge today head on. Are you ready for that?
Ana:
Yes, I'm ready.
Phil:
Great. So let's start with this very interesting kind of challenge or perspective is that actually, you kind of enjoy doing multiple things, right. Can you talk a little bit about that some of the things that you do and that you enjoy doing that are rooted in your passions.
Ana
Okay. I really don't like getting to know different projects. This is why as a lawyer or legal consultant, I enjoy helping people going to the details of the contract, or giving them my opinion on the business they're making. That's something I enjoy. I also enjoy a argumentation and debate and making some analysis of someone in making some bold speaking. Thinking of feedback of that and I've been part of the group too good for so long. I actually also enjoy reading different books. I don't know this is going to sound stupid, but I enjoy astrology. Also, I enjoy, I don't know many things I could tell you guys that I really liked and actually did, some working on right now are very different. I'm going to be on a tv show regarding the way I'm working in group dynamics be like a corporation for innovation and technology. And I'm also working up the security office of managing, which is it's so big I do there is no policy so bizarre like very different things.
Lauren:
Would you say? Out of all the contracts that you're working on? Is there one type of work that leads to the most income for you.
Ana:
The legal work is, I don’t know if the income is what matters, but is the most available type of job. Like most of the times I get contracts because I am a lawyer. And that's what they require. So it's like the most wanted thing on the market.
Lauren:
Right? Right. Because I guess sort of what's going through my mind as you're listing all the different passions and things that you like to do is that I think there's like, a clear line to me at least between what is work and what's part of your brand, and what's an interest. So for example, you mentioned that you love reading books and researching, which I think is awesome. To me, that would be more on the kind of like a hobby side of things. And that's part of who you are, and it makes you great at what you do, but it's not necessarily something that people would like hire for. So I guess, to me, just based on what you're listing out as your capabilities is that you're a lawyer who helps people with the details. Whether it's reviewing contracts or giving feedback on their business or giving feedback on, you know, speaking engagements, you're someone who handles the nitty gritty so that business owners can do the normal things that they want to be doing every day. Okay. Does that sound right? Or does it sound off?
Ana:
No, I mean, I think you're right. But the point is like, I also have a master's degree, which is not in law. I mean, here in Columbia law is like an undergrad. And then you have different postgrads masters and whatever my master's degrees in philosophy, which is also like an academic field, that is very diverse. When you say philosophy, you don't study only one. You study economics, you study, philosophy, you study ethics, you study policy. That's what made policy, which is perfect for my personality type. But there is where I don't see how to put that in order to impart not of my hobbies, but also my, my work profile.
Lauren:
It's interesting because it might be different in Colombia, but at least in Canada and in America, your degree is something that like, fuels, your passion, but it doesn't necessarily need to be mentioned when you're talking about your career or pitching yourself to potential clients or contracts. Is it different in Columbia? Like is your does your school basically, does your school need to be part of your sales pitch to someone?
Ana:
No, because that is the question. I just mentioned that because I don't think that my professional life is tied to law, necessarily.
Lauren:
Yeah, yeah. It doesn't seem like that to me either. But seems like your professional life is a bit more creative than your degree. What do you think Phil? Where do you draw the line between a personal interest and like a business?
Phil:
It's an interesting discussion. I think this comes up a lot, right? We're trying to figure out, it's this, this balancing act of specificity. So people know what they're going to get from you. But then also showing the various ways in which you work with people or the types of projects you do, or the types of clients that help you. So for example, we're experts in personal branding. That being said, we don't just do personal branding for one type of industry, we do it for a lot of different careers and industries. So we're kind of there's a little healthy tension that we're figuring out here between the details, which I like that Lauren, you picked up on that that's a great way to sum it all up. We want to find a way to summarize it, all right, but then almost like sub brand, the different access points to you, if it's through legal work, if it's through research, if it's through all those, you know, the different types of things. I think you're also still in a phase where you're discovering the ways in which people can access you.
One thing that might be useful to do is actually we just take a step back and be very crystal clear on what your goal is. So your goal, one year from now, or five years from now, what would you say your goal is professionally. So for example, like making more money or getting more clients, etc,
Ana:
Five years from now, I definitely want to be an independent consultant. I want to have different clients, helping them solve their problem, not necessarily just helping them with law, but with many tools.
Phil:
Okay, this is helpful. This is helpful and actually to anyone who's listening anytime that Lauren, and I kind of need clarification on how we navigate some of these challenges. What's the question we asked, What's your goal? What's your goal? Right? What's your goal? The answer to this question always gives us clarity on how to move forward. Here's the risk the challenge Ana.
So as soon as you say for example, I'm a lawyer, I also am a researcher, I'm an avid, you know, this, this, this and this. The more job titles we have our capabilities that we list, the less serious you seem or even like, the less valuable you seem, you know, for each of those. So we want to find a balance between the two. What is it that you do that's diverse, the different ways in which people can access you? But how do we limit it to those core kind of focuses so that people know that those are not only things that you do, but there are things that you do well, does that make sense?
Ana:
Yes, that makes sense. I don't have the answer to that. But that makes sense.
Phil:
Well, we're going to explore it. That's why we're having the conversation. Yeah, this will hopefully be helpful for you. So let's explore that. And actually, Lauren, I can think of a few examples where we've done tackled this with clients. I'm thinking of one actually example the client that was a lawyer, we actually sub branded the different access points for her. But other times we focus on one or two, what are your thoughts?
Lauren:
I have another question for Ana before I answer, and I'll give you some context to sort of what's going on in my brain on it before asking the question, but to me, I think we need to clarify what multitasking means. And I'll break that down further. multitasking is part of every job even if it's really, really specific. And so when you say multitasking, like can you elaborate on on what that means? Like are you meaning that you have a variety of different working styles that you can use to solve problems for people? Do you mean by multitasking that you can juggle multiple projects at the same time for someone like elaborate on what you mean by multitasking.
Ana:
I have a very weird answer, but I have different working style. Sometimes I do myself and I enjoy working alone and just focusing on the text on my documents, but there was some of the times I really enjoy sharing thoughts with people and having more contact with others. That's normal. I mean, I understand everybody kind of works like that. But on the other hand, I would like to double, you mentioned in as many projects that are different in nature and work toward them at the same time, as I do right now in my professional life.
Phil:
Okay, pause, pause, pause. Stop this conversation for a second, please. It's that time in the conversation when we take a pause.
Lauren:
Let's bring some focus to this episode.
Phil:
Focus lady because Lord knows, I can’t.
Lauren:
Are you ready to hear what's free on the blog this week? I guess free all blogs are free. What am I talking about free? Yeah, we're not gonna charge you to read the blog post. You have to subscribe now. Sorry. $1.
Phil:
Okay, so what do we have?
Lauren:
The blog post this week is about how to focus your brand, which like our guests today is a really common question we got from pretty much any new client we got on the phone with. It's really tough when you can be anything and when you have multiple strengths to decide where to zero and on and how you know, that's right. So we walk through our process that we use with clients to help them have more clarity with their brand and ultimately bring focus to their day to day life.
Phil:
Focus is something that I'm not good at. So I for one, really love this blog post. I like this. And I'm actually starting to implementing some of these things. So I recommend if you've already taken the time to listen this podcast and go ahead and read the blog. Hello, you're gonna find it useful. If you're like me.
Lauren:
Great. Well, that's all I had to say about the blog posts, shall we get back to it?
Phil:
Let's get back to it.
Lauren:
Actually, let's use us as an example. So we are a personal branding consultancy. Obviously, we have contracts that need to be reviewed, filled as speaking engagements, things like that. So assuming the sky is the limit, and you could help us in any way that you wanted, what are the different services that you would propose to us? And before you answer I just want to bring say that the reason why I'm using this as an example is because Phil and I are looking for that kind of through line between everything that you offer. So by going through this example, I think it might help us really figure out what that specialty is, even if it involves a lot of different tasks.
Ana:
I didn't know how weird this is going to sound, but I think I could help you to think not only the core of your business because of course, of course, you're experts in marketing and personal branding. But I would help you understand the reasons why you're doing what you're doing, or the convenience of certain options it's like a jump dive in your life. But I really don't like going with people like hand to hand on their thought process. That's what I enjoy the most.
Phil:
Great. I like that because that sounds like consulting to me. If consulting is the angle, you know, legal critical thinking. I mean, I'm not. I'm just starting to explore sub branding, but this is a better direction because to me multitasking is too vague. Multitasking doesn't give you enough credit for how good multitasking is. Since we all multitask it doesn't seem Yeah, let's avoid that word because it's not special. Yeah, yeah. But I like where this is going, because what you just described is really consulting, strategic thinking. I like it.
Lauren:
Well, no, I was just I was excited because I also really like it. So I honestly would. I think your title is that you're a business consultant. You use your legal education to comb through contracts, you help businesses think strategically about why they're doing the things that you're doing. You help them improve operations, and you also research trends to help their business come up with new ideas. Does that sound I like it.
Ana
My only problem is that I'm very involved with the public sector.
Lauren:
That's okay. Public sectors, hire consultants all the time.
Phil:
Yeah, I think that's good because that allows you to further define the types of industries and projects you take on see by you doing by you doing this kind of homework this organization ahead of time, it actually has a huge influence on the way your customer thinks, the way your customer understands the value that you have to them, which is really cool, right? They may not know exactly what it is they need. They know they, you know, they just know they need help. But then they go to your website, for example, click services and see, you know, the different groupings, the different offerings that Lauren just outlined for you, that is immensely helpful for them to identify themselves in what you offer. They won't identify themselves in you saying, you know, I'm a multitasker.
That might be true, but it doesn't give your buying or your paying customer confidence in the value they get from the service rendered. But when you take a step further and actually outline, boom, this is who I am. This is who I help. This is how I help them. You know, answering those questions. Obviously, we can answer them in 20 minutes on the phone, but we can start to move in the direction of answering knows, right in a way this can be valuable for your customer.
The goal is to have your customer identify themselves their needs, in exactly what you offer. So, today's been interesting because wow, you know, we're not saying this is the one thing you do, we're saying these are the multiple things you do, there still has to be specificity in the language. So your customer sees themselves almost like looking in the mirror and looking, you know, seeing the reflection back, it's like, boom, that's them, you know, you satisfy the need that immediate need that your customer has, and even in the public sector, that's totally fine.
Ana:
Okay, well, this was very revealing to me, like, overwhelm, like this new title. I thought oh, I mean, this title.
Lauren:
It is a lot of information. But one thing I will say is what's great about using the title consultant in any way is that consultant implies creativity and problem solving. And it implies multitasking because someone hires a consultant for expertise to help lift the burdens that happened day to day with a business. So I hope that once this information settles in, you'll actually feel really liberated and free because a consultant is very flexible as a term, it can be whatever you want it to be.
Ana:
Okay. I like that.
Phil:
I think it will free you a little bit from that kind of prison that feels like I'm a lawyer. You know, we think we've encountered this more than once. I think when you present yourself as a consultant, the type of person that does that kind of critical thinking and strategic work to then also say, I'm a lawyer, I mean, it just further legitimizes you as an expert in this space to be able to give advice based on experience based on years of, you know, studying. That is how all of this kind of comes together in a way that feels more positive, optimistic empowering for you than just kind of leading with I'm a lawyer, but I do more than that.
Ana:
Okay, if that makes sense. Yeah, I like that approach. Maybe myself, though, that is not stopping me from using something like that. I think this makes sense.
Phil:
A lot of times, well, I was just gonna say a lot of times when you're tackling these challenges on your own, it's hard to kind of own a big title like that. So sometimes we exist to give you a little nudge and say, listen, you're completely qualified to do this type of work, you know, take some liberty to actually brand yourself in that way. So it's very clear how your, your audience, your customer, your client can access you.
Ana:
Yeah, they don't know. They need me. I have to tell them.
Phil:
Fantastic. Well, I think we've made some progress in this discussion What do you thinking? How do you feel about all of this?
Ana:
I'm thinking something very practical, like, should I change my Instagram and put this word now? Like, I don't feel prepared for that. And since I have all these topics and variety of things. I most of the time, think like, maybe I should, you know, I don't like definitions by heart. Because I think if you define yourself as something, then that will be there and people will look at your providing they will have that perception of you.
Phil:
Well, I don't think it's an overnight change. I would sit with what we've talked about today for at least a few days, and actually start to make a plan of action of what you would do next, right. If there's still some hesitation around committing to this, talk to a few people around you, right? Take inventory of yourself as some opinions of others. It doesn't mean what they say is what exactly, you know, you should do, but I would sit with it. Thanks. about it, do some research, spend some time online trying to look at competitors, like brands, brand heroes, you know, different types of people that might inspire your positioning of this. You don't have to copy anyone, but you can be I've said before you can be strongly inspired by what others are doing well. So I wouldn't be so quick to like, update your Instagram right away. I would sit with this for a few days, then start to make an action plan when you land on something that feels right.
Ana:
Okay, that's refreshing for me.
Phil:
Good. Hopefully this gives you you know, I know it's a lot it can be overwhelming because it's a big decision, but at the same time, it's kind of fun and it should be freeing. Hopefully this advice we're giving you today. Feels good moving forward. That's our goal.
Ana:
Yeah, no, it does. Very well here but when you talk about something with people it kind of makes sense. You can’t make sense out of talking to yourself. It's fascinating. Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Phil:
You are so welcome. You have to let us know how everything goes. And best of luck with everything and thank you for taking a few minutes of your day to hang out with us on Brand Therapy.
Ana:
Thank you Phil for your consultancy. And Lauren, thank you very much.
Phil:
Lauren Moore, what do you think?
Lauren:
I think Ana didn't want advice.
Phil:
Really? Well, I think she did. She came around to it in the end, but like she showed me, you know, to her credit, she admitted it's overwhelming. All of it is overwhelming. I think we first had to find out what her goals were because initially it didn't seem like her branding question was rooted in money making or you know, growing a business.
Lauren:
Yeah, I think that Ana was looking, I could just be making this up. But it seemed to me like Ana was kind of looking for us to validate the fact that you don't need a label in the world to be successful and to be desired professionally. And I don't think that's true. I don't think that you need to have all of your side passions be part of your professional life. I think they certainly can fuel your professional life, but I don't think your side passions need to be part of the pitch or the offering that you're providing clients. Does that make sense?
Phil:
It makes perfect sense. And I'm hoping we didn't validate it today because I agree. The personal things are the hobbies, those side things that you do that you get enjoyment out of those humanize you as a brand, particularly for personal brands, they're super important. I'll give you an example. Travel right is my greatest passion when someone's like so Phil, what do you do for fun? I hate that question because I really only have one answer. Well, too, I work. I mean, I like my job. So I work a lot.
The second thing is travel, I love to travel, I don't really have anything else that I love as much as that. I don't travel for a living. Right? That's my point travel has become a humanizing element of what I do. And I've incorporated into my brand, because it makes me unique and I'll post about it on Instagram, but I don't travel for a living.
Lauren:
Yeah, like most people wouldn't travel for a living unless you're getting you know, sponsored and paid to do it. But even then, even if you were, you know, getting sponsored and paid to travel, then you're a content creator. You're not a traveler. So I think where maybe the kind of initial tension from the recording was coming from, was because on I was like, was basically saying, I bring so much to the table. I do So many things, I have so many different passions, I want people to know because I want them to see my value. But the thing is, is that if you're really good at doing push ups, and you tell people I'm really good at push ups, that doesn't help someone with understanding who you are like, are you a personal trainer? Are you a professional athlete? Is that just a hobby? We need to look beyond the day to day actions and create a title to summarize what she does.
Phil:
Touche! As much as you don't like labels, they’re still necessary for context, right? People online especially have a very short attention span. So the context is essential. So people know. I think so what they're dealing with who you are, why they should care very quickly. interesting discussion. We've helped people on the podcast before who are multifaceted but this was an interesting angle on that right. So I'm glad thank you Ana for coming on the podcast and and having this discussion. Hopefully it's been useful for people listen to.
By the way, if you liked this episode, we would be forever grateful. If you took the time to leave a review, leave a review that helps other people find our podcasts that we worked very hard to create. Also, Lauren, do you want to mention where people can also discover on our website?
Lauren:
Yes, if people go to our website, there will be a free download associated with the episode and blog posts so people can learn a little bit more about creating a positioning statement and creating a label for yourself even if you don't want one because that's how the world works.
Phil:
That's how it works. If this episode resonated with you, we have created materials for you to dive in a bit further, go to philpallen.co and click resources. Until next time, we'll see you back on Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I’m Lauren.
Phil:
We'll see you then.
