106. Are you addicted to your phone? (f. Dr. Alexander Bacher)
How many times a day do you look at your phone? 📲 If you're like the majority of people, chances are that it's a lot. Inspired by the new year ahead of us, hosts Phil and Lauren met with clinical psychologist (and former client) Dr. Alexander Bacher, a specialist in addiction treatment, for techniques on managing our reliance on technology. With references to The Social Dilemma, an overview of addiction indicators, and techniques for bringing awareness to your unconscious actions, this episode gives you the information and tools to take on 2021 with health in mind!
Episode transcription
Hey listeners. Before we dive right into this episode, I wanted to share our latest free download LinkedIn tips for beginners worksheet. If LinkedIn is a priority platform for you, you'll love this handy one page PDF, which walks you through five critical steps to make the most of your presence on LinkedIn. Things like defining your goal and purpose, choosing strong photos, adding keywords to your headline, your about section, your featured section, and telling stories and your experience and so much more. I can't believe I did it. But I did it. I condensed all of these actionable takeaways into a single page, which is yours to download totally free. To grab this worksheet, visit philp.al/linkedin/tips. That's philp.al/linkedin/tips. Now onto the show.
Phil
Hello, welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren
And I'm Lauren.
Phil
And this is the podcast where we help you position, build and promote your brand. If you've listened to the last few episodes where we've had guests, you've heard from some of our very favorite people, people, friends and clients. And today is no exception to that. This is a highly anticipated episode for Lauren and I because we've been so looking forward to having this conversation with a client and a friend who we consider to be a huge highlight. We absolutely loved working with Dr. B. Dr. B, you're here. We're so happy you're here. Thank you for joining us on Brand Therapy.
Dr. B.
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. It's pleasure to see you guys again, talk to you guys. It's been a while.
Lauren
It has my gosh, I know the world has completely changed. Now, when we've released this episode, it's gonna be a new year. It's 2021, and so we're thinking about habits and improving your day to day life. And then Phil and I thought, well, who else is better to come on to talk about maybe getting rid of some bad habits and or addictions, and speaking about tech and all that stuff, then Dr. B. So I guess to kick things off, I think it would be useful for people to know about what you do, and what your job is and the type of help that you provide people.
Dr. B.
Sure, absolutely. So I'm a clinical psychologist by trade. My specialization is in addiction psychology, primarily drug and alcohol addiction. But the way I conceive of addiction, really kind of, it doesn't matter if it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, technology, really the way it affects the brain and behavior it’s all very similar from a neurochemical standpoint, biological basis. So, that being said, I spent most of my life working at high end addiction treatment centers, I did my postdoc at Betty Ford center, then I worked at Promises Malibu for four years. And then I actually went over to Zurich, Switzerland to work at the Kusnacht practice, which is as they brand themselves the most exclusive Treatment Center in the world over there. And then I came back and worked at passages treatment center again in Malibu, and since then I've gone off on my own to do concierge addiction work, basically bringing treatment to the client wherever he or she is around the world with the idea that working a client in their home environment just makes much more sense from a practical standpoint.
Lauren
Amazing. I find your work so fascinating. I mean, we've talked about it for hours, but I wish you had a television show or something. I mean, Netflix, with Dr. B.
Dr. B.
I'm actually trying you know. I just, with the help of you guys launching my revamped my website, rebranding myself, I've now launched a YouTube channel that started to get content up and running and I've actually been in the process of writing a book during COVID. I figured what better time to write a book. I've been wanting to write one for 15 years now, so I finally have just been banging through it. I mean, I'm almost 80 to 90% done. I'm hoping to have it done by the end of the year. But yes, funny, you should say that. I'm hoping to really just start a lot of content for just education purposes, self empowerment purposes, because I think there's no better time than now really that it's needed.
Lauren
Yeah. So let's just kick things off. And first talk about how you define the word addiction. What is an addiction to you?
Dr. B.
I mean, an addiction to me is anything that starts to get in the way of your life. And when I say life, from an interpersonal standpoint, from a work standpoint, education standpoint, physical mental health standpoint, it's when whatever you're doing, whether it's alcohol, drugs, technology, gambling, starts to have consequences that impede those areas of life. To the point where friends, family partners start to question that thing and really express concerns about it. And whatever that thing is usually ends up taking up an excessive amount of time in one's life. So we're spending the time either thinking about it, engaging in the use of it, or planning when we're going to engage with it next. And then there's usually kind of a mood component where when we're not engaging with that activity, we feel dysphoric and kind of low mood or irritable or anxious. And when we are engaging with whatever that thing is, we feel much more excited and kind of alive and life is more intense. There's usually also lying about the time spent either engaging, thinking about or using whatever that thing is. So we tend to minimize the negative consequences or effects of whatever that thing is, in our lives.
And for me, the biggest part of it is whatever that thing is, is it being used as an end in and of itself, because technology, alcohol, I mean, there's, let's be honest, there's things that make us feel good, just by themselves. But the harm in my mind is really when that thing goes from being an end, in and of itself to a means to some other end. And so what I mean by that is, people enjoy a glass of wine or beer after work, you know, happy hour socializing with friends, if it's just being used as an end in and of itself, ie enjoying that moment with friends socializing, great, no harm, no foul. But it's when we start to use technology, alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex food as a means to some other end, ie, to avoid having to sit with whatever feelings are there to kind of distract ourselves from anxiety or depression or whatever other uncomfortable feelings are there at that moment. That's when we start to see things getting into what I would say dangerous territory, because so many of us you know. You’ve heard me say before, you know, we're called human beings, but we're really bad at being a we're much better at doing right. And so I think so many of us get caught up in this constant go, go, go, go, doing, doing, that whenever we start to feel things, it's a little bit scary, overwhelming, intense. And so we then start to reach for these distractions whether it's food, sex, drugs, alcohol, technology, things that distract us from feeling that this kind of a form of escape from it. And that's where in my mind, a lot of the dangerous come in.
Phil
I love just listening to you talk about your work. And I love your perspective on things. YouTube is going to be so good for you, by the way. We're thinking now. And also Lauren, I get it so many times that our strategy calls all of a sudden turned into us towards the end of the call asking Dr. B, every question we could think of! Yeah, it's just so fascinating to hear. And I guess we're thinking so it's a brand new year, and people are wanting to adopt good habits, or the wanting to shake the habits that are not good technology and addictions to phones is maybe one of them. Is this widespread? Is this something that you think is really a problem for a lot of people right now, and maybe some ideas on how to approach that if it is.
Dr. B.
In the field of psychology, there's still, you know, kind of a debate as to whether this is really an addiction or not, you know, our DSM, which is kind of the bible of psychiatric disorders, does not recognize technology addiction, the World Health Organization, just, I think it was last year recognized internet gaming addiction or gaming addiction as something legit. But beyond that, a technology addiction is this umbrella term that's being thrown around to encompass everything from excessive internet use to gaming addiction to overusing one smartphone or overuse of social media, or even screen addiction, you know, whether that screen is your iPad, your phone, your television, there's so many things these days that are consuming our time and attention. In my mind, it really is a problem with the numbers. I was just doing some quick research, you know, preparing for today, and you know, just seeing what's out there. And I've seen numbers everywhere from roughly 8% to 38% of the population struggling with both technology addiction. The reason for those broad numbers is because different researchers in different countries and cultures around the world defined it differently. So you're going to have a pretty wide range. I was just in Japan last October a year ago, and wherever I travel, I always look into the local cultures and see what the biggest addictions are in those cultures. And in Japan and especially South Korea, gaming addiction is huge. I mean, the numbers are like 50% of the population for adolescence, teens, and young adults. Really big problem to the point where South Korea has state run facilities strictly for technology addiction or specific gaming addiction. And I remember reading some articles in Japan about parents trying to take away the gaming console for a kid, and the kid is literally going crazy acting out and stuff and stabbed the parents to death.
I remember reading articles as well, where you have these places where you can go and do your online gaming and groups wirelessly with people around the world, and there's people who will literally go there and stay there for 2436 hours straight, like not eating, not sleeping, and some of them passing out and almost dying from exhaustion. I think one or two did die, you know, some articles I read.
So I mean, absolutely, in my mind, this is a problem or an addiction for some people. It just we needs to kind of get more clear about how you define it. And it's not like drugs and alcohol, where we can say you need to abstain from it completely. It's more of an addiction where similar to food sex, we need to learn how to engage with it in a more healthy, responsible way, and be accountable to ourselves and others for that, and get clear of what that even looks like. We're starting to get more clear.
But going back to some statistics that I was seeing how roughly young adults and adults spend roughly nine to 11 hours a day involved in some sort of technology usage, whether that's emailing, working on your computer, or searching the internet watching stuff on the internet, social media, that's a huge number nine to eleven hours a day. And for even the tweens, the tweens, roughly six hours a day, you know, supposed to be at school for eight hours a day, so their whole life beyond school is on their phones, of course, they're using a lot more social media.
There's definitely pros and cons to it. But I was just watching actually, a couple days ago, this great documentary on Netflix, called the social dilemma.
Lauren
I haven't seen it yet. Because I'm worried it's gonna freak me out. But a
Dr. B.
A little terrifying if we don't really address these things soon, the people who are basically they're interviewing this documentary are the people who literally built the algorithms for Google search engines, and how to monetize Facebook, you know, and Instagram and create all the algorithms to keep you on there as long as possible. And all these people are now sounding the alarm because they themselves have now become addicted to a degree. I mean, one of my favorite quotes is the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? These people's intentions and creating these products were harmless originally, creating platforms that give you more of what you're interested in and like. But in doing so, created this monster where we only get this singular view of reality that fits with where we're located. You know, I mean, if you do a Google search for whether climate change exists, you know, LA versus Texas versus, you know, other parts of the country, you will get different prompts that have different Google search results. So basically, we're creating this almost individualistic reality of a sense, which could fuel these polarization of politics, of conspiracy theories, and just, you know, these rabbit holes where things don't change, it's going to be kind of scary.
Lauren
It's crazy, because I was thinking about how, before COVID, when you could go to malls and stuff. And there would be people. It's just so crazy how when you're surrounded by tons of people, and you look around the majority of people who are not even in the present moment, and are just staring down at their screens, it's not as bad in Vancouver, but definitely in LA, you would see people crossing the street, like on a crosswalk staring down at their phone. It's just so crazy to me. So one thing that was coming to mind before we hopped on to this interview, is kind of the concept of escapism. So when someone has an addiction to drugs, or alcohol, I feel they're escaping reality in a way. Do you think that when someone's looking at their screen excessively, or getting pulled into the world of Instagram, is that a similar form of escapism? Because there's an entertainment component, I imagine it may be a little different. I don't know, what are your thoughts?
Dr. B.
So I guess I'll start with my favorite studies, which was right when COVID started, I thought, oh my god, this is gonna be amazing to watch. You know what happens with the world now that we're being forced to isolate and be by ourselves beyond our own without distractions or escapism. So one of my favorite studies is they take men and women one at a time and they put them in an empty room with just a chair in it. And they tell them, all we want you to do is just sit here for 20 minutes and hang out. If it gets too uncomfortable, you feel like you need to leave the room, you can push this button here and shock yourself to get out of the room early. And 70% of the men and 30% of the women chose to shock themselves to leave the room because just sitting there on their own was too uncomfortable for whatever reason, right? 20 minutes. I mean it's kind of sad if you ask me out.
This is kind of like the instant gratification culture that we live in. It's like I want what I want and why now and you know, we're just used to being bombarded With so many things, whether it's our newsfeed or just constant stimulation, scrolling through things or swiping between apps, so you know, opening up and closing things. So I think we get bored so easily and we don't know what to do with that boredom. And if we sit with that boredom, it can tend to lead to anxiety or feelings of distress or thinking about things we maybe don't want to think about, which then leads very quickly to, again, kind of picking up our phone just scrolling mindlessly through things, or watching something that we really don't care much about. But it just takes our attention off of having to sit with and just be with ourselves or be in the moment. It is such a shame in my mind, because there's this whole amazing world going on around us on a constant basis. And the more we forget that or don't pay attention to it or are unable to see it, the more we're going to get sucked into and consumed by this artificial reality or world that technology provides or kind of connects us to but doesn't connect us in a really healthy way. It's more this singular reality where we exist in our own world separate from others, to an extent. So absolutely, I think escapism is becoming a really big problem.
Phil
Let's say someone, maybe they're not self diagnosed, addicted to technology, but they're aware that they're using it too much. Do you have any tips for those people that are maybe incorporating it into a New year's resolution, and they're wanting to keep it down? I mean, now our phones tell us how long we're on them, or I think we get that every Sunday, your weekly report. Now we know how long so maybe they have a certain time in their mind. Any tactics that you could share that you've learned in your work with addiction with a lot of different things that people could do to help themselves?
Dr. B.
With behavior modification, it's really all about awareness. It's all about cultivating more awareness of what you're wanting to achieve, what your goals are, you know, also awareness of why you're doing what you're doing. And so much of the time these things become automatic habits that we don't even realize we're reaching for our phone, opening it up and starting to swipe for it or just grabbing it mindlessly. So really, just awareness, I always say it's half the battle, right? So creating much more awareness about what your goals are, why you want to achieve those goals, you really want to have a reason you know, that's important. I like to say why that makes you cry. Because if it's not a really important one, it's probably not going to last very long. Because it's going to very quickly you're going to bump up against you know, that resistance, do I really need to do this, this is ridiculous, you know, like and start to justify and rationalize why it's okay what you're already doing.
So really remember whether it's to reconnect with your partner or spend more time with your kids face to face or write that book you've been always wanting to do or, again, achieve some other special goal that's hopefully going to promote more motivation to get back out into the real world that have these real world great experiences and not just getting the dopamine hits and high tone.
But in terms of specifics, yeah, absolutely. You know, any apps that can track your time on each app or just phone use in general. I would recommend just simple behavior modifications, which turning your phone on silent mode and kind of in another room when you're going to work, only checking it on lunch break or break every hour for like 10 minutes. If you are going to engage in time on your device, setting a limit for it, you know, whether it's like, okay, playing video games for 45 minutes to an hour, or you're going to do social media stuff. Literally set an alarm on your phone. And for that 30 minutes or an hour, whatever you feel is a more realistic and healthy time frame and start small, gradual progress, so you feel like you're making some progress is always a great idea.
Turning off alerts and notifications is a great idea as well. In this movie, Social Dilemma, they talk about how notifications alerts were designed and created to basically bring you back to your phone, look at it, open it up and keep engaging with it. So if you turn all those things off, there's less likelihood of being sucked back into it. I like to also think about rewarding yourself, you know, I'm a big fan of positive reinforcement. So if you're trying to, let's say limit your screen time more, try to start being more healthy, whatever that looks like for you doing more exercise, eating more healthy, maybe make a trade off where for every hour you spend doing meditation or going to the gym, that you then get one hour of screen time you know to watch your favorite TV show or engage in social media or whatever it is, right. So trying to help balance it out. But again, kind of in a rewarding, healthy, positive way.
I'm also a big fan of getting an accountability partner and really, the more you make public your goals and desires, start telling other people about it, the more you're then going to feel like you have to live up to it. Because then that reflects back at us as a capable person, a person of integrity. And you know, when we say something, we made it right. So I was doing that with my book lately as well. I've been telling people I have been writing my book, I'm gonna have it done by the end of the year, because now there's this pressure that I put on myself to actually follow through with it, right? So when I see those people next time, most likely, they're gonna check in with the oh, how's the book going? Or how's it going with your desire to kind of live with social media or technology? So really letting people know what your goals are. And then having an accountability partner who wants to go down this road with you, and you can check in with and support each other and hold each other accountable. It always makes that process much easier to have someone to go through with.
Lauren
I have a question that's more related to traditional forms of addiction, like drugs and alcohol. So when you're working with someone who is trying to come to terms with or get past their addiction, would you normally recommend that they cut out the drugs or the booze, cold turkey?
Dr. B.
I mean, it depends on the severity of their use, the frequency quantity of the use. I mean, I've had people who are drinking 1.75 liters of vodka a day on top of two bottles of wine, a person like that cannot stop cold turkey, they need to detox in a medical environment, because you can go into grand mal seizure and die. So I mean, it depends, if there's someone who feels like they should do a dry January and kind of give it up for a month, you know, their uses of that Ipad? Yes. My thought is always like, a few don't think there's a problem with something, then there shouldn't be any harm, or difficulty giving it up for at least 30 or 60 days, right?
Lauren
I can't even think of things like obviously, I'm not a drug addict, or an alcoholic, but bread. It was the first thing my brain went to I was like, Oh, my god, carbs, I have a problem.
Dr. B.
I mean, the closest I came to knowing what that would like for a lot of my patients was last year, I went vegan for a month and I went vegetarian for three months. And that was hard. Actually is a great documentary called The Average Joe. This guy does this whole cold turkey from eating pretty unhealthy diets like raw vegan within one day, and just to watch not only the physical, but the mental and psychological withdrawal that he goes through. One of my heroes and favorite researchers, Dr. Joe Dispenza, always talks about how the body is the unconscious mind. And whatever we do on a daily basis, behaviors, whatever things we're adjusting into our body, all of it gets imprinted on a cellular level in our body. And when those cells divide and form sister cells, those new cells will have more receptor sites, for whatever neuro chemicals, neuropeptides hormones that are associated with whatever drug alcohol or even behaviors that were used to engage in. Because whatever behavior, you know, whether it's like the victim mentality, or the control freak, even the kind of control person, our body will continually recreate patterns and dynamics in our life that make the likelihood of those experiences more likely to occur so that we then get the neurochemical kick that our body is expecting and wanting. So very quickly, our body is basically just being conditioned to expect and receive all these things. And when it doesn't get it, we start to feel irritable, and we start to kind of think about that thing all the time. Whenever I don't eat, I get hangry, right? Like I start to kind of like get really angry and go find food becomes a main priority to satiate that cells need right? And so very quickly Yeah, if we're not paying attention to how we're conditioning ourselves to act on a daily basis, it becomes this kind of automatic cycle and almost like creating a monster within ourselves. Does that answer your question?
Lauren
Yeah, it does. Because I was just thinking even though this episode was about going in with the tech angle it was making me think about maybe it's worth having someone analyze all parts of their life and think about what they could give up for 30 to 60 days with no problem that maybe they should be able to give up. If I don't have my morning coffee, I don't know what would happen but I don't think it would be good. And I know Dr. B you don't drink coffee. I remember this now.
Dr. B.
No.
Phil
I'm somewhere in the middle like I enjoy it but I don't need it. If I had to skip a day because I didn’t have it in the pantry, it wouldn't make a difference. I just enjoy it. I enjoy the taste of it and it’s become my morning ritual, but I don't require it.
Dr. B.
I think again, kind of going back to this idea of, we tend to use things as distractions from being with ourselves. Work is a big one as well, let's be honest, we live in a culture that celebrates work, workaholism to an extent, this, go go, go, go, go multitask, juggling a million different things, and all the research on multitasking says, not good. Quality goes down, you think you're doing more in a shorter period of time, in actuality, you’re better to just do one thing, focus on it, do it really well get it done out of the way, clear up more brain space for the next thing.
But the other interesting thing I found with so many of my patients over the years is that, so many people don't really know how to just relax, you know, and kind of enjoy life for the moment, you know, and so we're like, doing all this work making all this money, and then for what, we can't even relax and enjoy it without feeling like I need to check emails, we need to be on call and what is that fulfilling? Is it fulfilling, you know, some sense of like identity that you know, that without me answering these emails, and working and doing all this stuff, that, that I'm going to lose my sense of self worth, or you know, not be as lovable or valuable to my partner, to my family to, you know, it's so important in life, I think, to spend some time ideally each day and self reflection, you know, kind of whether it's taking a walk on the beach, or just a walk around your neighborhood, or just sitting and being still and meditating, to allow whatever is there to come up and notice it and see what it's trying to tell you or show you. If we're just constantly go, go, go, go, go distracting ourselves, you know, with whatever these things are, we don't ever gain that wisdom or insight.
I remember when I was working on Wall Street, you know, I mean, I love sleep, but I was able to get myself to a point where I could function on five or six hours of sleep, and do well, but it's like, do I want that? Is that a good thing, all the research says seven and a half to nine. But my point in saying this is that so few people don't even know what their baseline level of functioning looks like. We start drinking coffee, we start taking this medication, we start doing these other behaviors or things that over time, start to pull us further and further away from maybe our authentic self, that over a period of time, it's like who am I anymore. I don't even know really who the authentic Dr. B. is. What's really me and what my core beliefs and values are versus what's been socialized and conditioned into me from society, from religion, from family, from peers, social media, you know, it's like we lose track of who we really are. If that makes sense.
Phil
It makes great sense. Getting deep. We think we know who the real Dr. B is, and we just have so much fun. We've so enjoyed this chat with you. And I think that our listeners have also appreciated this technology and everything else that we've talked about. Where can people find you and get more from you, you've got a new YouTube channel. Tell us what you got cooking so people can get more?
Dr. B.
So you can find me on Instagram and all social media platforms @dralexanderbacher. Also, my website, dralexanderbacher.com and YouTube channel. As far as I know, it just was set up with the help of a friend, I assume it's also Dr. Alexander Bacher. The book that I'm writing is called Being Human. And hopefully, it'll be coming out at the end of this year. I’m going to self publish it and it's super timely with what's going on in the world. But also framing things that COVID and what's happened can be a huge blessing in disguise and an opportunity to really start to reconnect with ourselves, our deeper authentic selves, you know, and kind of remember what's really most important. And to really, hopefully create some major shifts, not only in your own individual life, but also hopefully on a societal and maybe even at global scale was the intention with my book.
Phil
Fantastic. Well, thank you for being such an amazing guest on Brand Therapy. You're like the real therapist here, we're imposters.
Lauren
We need to change the name of the podcast. I'm humiliated in this particular circumstance. Oh, man. Well, thank you so much, Dr. B.
Dr. B.
Absolutely. My pleasure. Always a great time hanging out with you guys and chatting and I look forward to doing some more hopefully in the future.
Lauren
For sure.
Phil
Love it.
