190. How do you get brand deals?
Did you know that anyone can become a paid content creator? 📸 This episode will teach you how! In this episode, hosts Phil and Lauren discuss Phil’s journey in growing his channels, working with 70+ brand partners, and unlocking six figures of annual income from collaborations alone.
Episode transcription
Phil
Brand Therapy, that's this podcast. We're talking today about sponsored content, sponsored content.
Lauren
And these are generalities. We're talking about specifics here, which is my favorite thing to talk about on every episode.
Phil
It is your favorite, you say to guess now, I'd like to get to specifics. You know, can you tell us specifically.
Lauren
I'm just I'm so sick of vague answers, like either telling me how to do it or get off the show. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. But actually, in all honesty, when you pointed out that I asked every guest that, I was beyond humiliated.
Phil
I'd like to get to some specifics now.
Lauren
I have some questions about specifics. Now. Let's talk specifics.
You ask every guest that and I'm looking at the episode. I let them have their little warm up, and then they're in the interrogation seat for the remaining 20 minutes. By the way, if you'd like to be a guest on Brand Therapy, you can message us.
phil
No, don't message us. We already get a ton of messages.
Lauren
So as listeners know, sponsored content has unlocked an incredible revenue stream for you that you weren't even anticipating.
phil
I sometimes describe it as my part time job with a full time salary.
Lauren
Yeah. Which is pretty freaking nice.
Phil
It is nice. What's more important to me than the money is the joy that I get out of spending the time I do, creating content, I really enjoy it. I really like making videos. I really like trying new platforms. I even like the outcome of a brand saying, wow, Phil, we really love the video you made for us. Thank you for doing such a good job that brings me so much satisfaction.
I love branding, but you know, it's super cool. I just had a lunch. I just got back from a lunch we were reflecting on this. And the person that I went to lunch with said, it's just so incredible how you've built a business around such strong self awareness. Specifically being that you know exactly what it is you like to do, which is what you consider fun, and how you've delegated the other areas of your business. I say that with trepidation because I'm at that point, and you're not at that point yet. But we're trying to get you there by the end of the year, because you have to you have to do a lot of this stuff that I don't do. But yeah, right, right, we have just we have a third, we're getting to that point. But honestly, I'm able to plug in to client projects that I've had for over a decade. But I get to really focus on creating content for brands, which last year earned us over 100,000 in the calendar year and this year will be higher,
Lauren
Definitely higher.
phil
Definitely higher.
lauren
So I'm hoping that with this episode, people can see that getting sponsorship deals is not as unreachable, as you might think. I used to think before you started that, you needed to have 100,000 followers minimum even at $100,000 You wouldn't be over 100,000 followers, you wouldn't be making that much and like I've learned that's not true at all.
Phil
Not at all. And you also don't need to be any kind of impressive profession to unlock this vertical. So while I'm still impressed with this profession, but when I hop on TikTok which is once a month, I see content from people that are like gardeners or plumbers, handyman people working in a kitchen, you know an Italian guy making a sandwich making a panini yeah and has such a following that he's able to actually leave working for someone else and open his own Panini shop in Italy that now has a lineup out the door because people saw him on Tik Tok. You don't need to be a doctor, a lawyer a celebrity you can do whatever it is you do right now and unlock a vertical around content creation and we can explore what that means for me is brand deals the niche or niche depending on pronunciation. I don't like nitch it sounds like something that's living in your hair.
Lauren
No, let's stick with Canadian for version for the Canadian dialect.
phil
I don't actually make a ton from ad revenue. I have colleagues friends that make more in ad revenue with fewer subscribers than me I'm at around the time of recording this round 32,000 subscribers. My friend Becca from Inside the Square, she's been on the podcast, I collaborate a lot with her. We just had a fun little April Fool's joke on April Fool's Day where I posted a video of her on my channel, she posted a video of me on her channel. I don't know, she's kind of we entertain each other that way. But she makes way more than me and ad revenue, quadruple what I make monthly in ad revenue even though I have I think almost double the subscribers.
lauren
Is because of based on like duration, watched?
Phil
Watch time. And because she's doing her tutorials start to finish a shot at or as people people would consume potentially more of my videos, like a bigger audience, but less time watched. It's not better or worse. It just is. It's just different. And also, I've got other colleagues that have rela same subscribers as me, and almost no inbound deals. So I spend 20 minutes a day, replying to brands. I get some days 10,15 sometimes 20 emails a day from brands wanting to collaborate with me on a video. And so I have a whole process. Thank God, I have a manager Elle, who's on the podcast. But I still because we have so many inquiries, I have to build that filter to make sure they're not just trying to get a free deal. To make sure that they do have a reasonable budget they at least know we charge for and I don't care about their product free year of it. affiliate sales not interested pay me, honey. That's how this works. So I guess we'll get into that.
Lauren
So when was your first sponsored video? And how much did you charge?
phil
I'd say the first sponsored collaboration, actually, let me pull up a spreadsheet. I don't think if I remember correctly. So I actually kind of funny that I can't remember it, because I've worked with so many brands, I think over 60 in three years. And I last counted. We're at over 60. But let me let me scroll down to the spreadsheet from 2000. Let's see. No, there's nothing in this spreadsheet from 2000. So I've only started doing brand deals in 2021. The first one was a bank called bank of hope. And it was a $400 deal. I believe that was the first one.
Lauren
Do you feel retrospectively that that was the right price?
Yeah, probably.
Lauren
So start small.
phil
eYah, yeah, I think I was happy that they paid money for work that I considered to be fairly easy. I'm making videos anyways, all they wanted was, I think, a 90 second integration in a YouTube video, I didn't do a dedicated video about them. They wanted me to promote them in a video that I was already making. And then I think I posted about them on Instagram as well. It was something like that it was so long ago that I can't remember. But yeah, I feel really good about that.
And remember, don't put too much pressure on how much you charge for one deal. Because no one's holding you to that rate forever, you can then charge the next opportunity that comes along based on what you learn from that first experience.
So even if you get offered a product or service for free, something that you would likely buy anyways, then you might want to say yes to that. Here's why, there's so much value in creating content, even if you're not paid for it, that propels you as an expert, or purely a creator in that space.
I'll give an example. I did a video called three free apps for content creation. I wasn't paid for any of the apps in that video. But what it did was it alerted competitors of those three apps that I was a creator that was creating about insert brand topic here. In some cases, social media scheduling, you know, content organization, app, stuff like that. I'm kind of geeky when it comes to like tools and apps I love just integrating useful things into a workflow. And so that has opened me up really, that's the reason that we have this vertical.
That's the reason I have the number of inbound requests daily, is because I talk so naturally about these types of industries and brands and platforms, even sometimes when I'm not being paid for it. And better yet, when you have a video that has proof of concept like you know, 100,000 views, it's very hard to do that with a sponsored video for the most part unless the nature of the video is really cool. It's happened for me a few times, but even 10,000 I get pretty happy about that, so do brands. But you need to be creating even if you're not paid for it to start to get registered in influencer databases.
Lauren
Do you remember how many followers you had when you got that first bank of Hope deal?
phil
Yeah, it was less than 5000 subscribers.
Lauren
Do you think that someone needs to have around 5000 generally to get started?
Phil
Purely anecdotal, it could be less than that. But for me, as soon as I hit around that 5000, mark, I started to notice an absolute increase in two things, the number of inbound requests for collaboration, and the willingness for brands to pay for it, versus sending me a free product, or enticing me purely based on affiliate sales cap. Prior to that, mark, at least in my industry, it's gonna be different for everyone, prior to that, it was harder, I'd say or less frequent.
Lauren
And do you think that followers matter more for sponsored deals on like Instagram and TikTok? Then on YouTube, like with subscribers?
phil
Yeah, I do, I think that follower count is always going to be considered, that's always going to weigh on someone's opinion of how much you're worth doing, you know, yeah, putting a cost to the transaction or the act of doing business with you. But I would say on Instagram, there's definitely more of an emphasis on number of followers, because the number of followers you have is what people associate with for your reach. It's harder to reach people on Instagram, that are not followers. Whereas on TikTok, I don't think it matters. I don't think the number of followers matter at all, I think the average of the number of views you get between all of your content, if you take an average, that's likely the driving decision maker on TikTok on YouTube, I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. I think people look at your number of subscribers as a mark of your establishment. Yeah, legitimacy. But then also the number of views matter. And I'd say that other element on YouTube that brands care a lot about quality. And so for me, that's the only thing that I can control. I can't control how many people are gonna watch the video. And I say that to every brand, I cannot for as much as I will try. And I will, I cannot guarantee virality. But I can guarantee high production value. I invested in a camera that shoots in 4k, I invested in my home studio, good lighting. I have a videographer that helps me that watches the frame, while I read the script with exact wording that the client can approve if they want, they normally don't need to, like they know exactly what they're getting. And they, you know, they can bank on having high production value. That's the one thing I can control and always promise.
lauren
And I also think that you're very consistent in your style and delivery. And I think that consistency is probably pretty important for a potential sponsor to see. Because if they're interested in paying you for examples of videos that you share with them, they're going to want something that looks and feels similar.
phil
I think so yeah. I mean, I maybe I don't think as much about that. Because I'm so used to it. I'm so used to my environment. It was funny, actually, I shot YouTube videos yesterday with Brian, who works with me. And he was recording a little testimonial for me for another project I'm working on. I sat in front of the camera, or I sat behind the camera, rather, he came and sat in my chair. And he was like, this is a lot harder than it looks. He had to do three takes of our little testimony. And I said I'll remind you of that when you make fun of me, because I'm just so used to it, right. But it was kind of funny to see my space lit up and everything in place, from that lens. From that perspective, you get so used to it so close to it. But yeah, that's something I can control high production costs.
Another thing that I can control is the effort that we put into the video, not just the quality of it, but research will do to show that we care about SEO. So I actually send a screenshot of the phrase that I plan to start with, for the angle of the video, I think it's really important to communicate, and I think these brands really value communication. So rather than me winning a brand deal and saying, okay, I'll send you the finished video on this day. And as you know, I let them be a part of it by saying hey, here's the angle that I think is going to work well. You know, three free apps or my 10 Best AI tools for real estate, whatever, right? Whatever that title is. By sharing that upfront. It gives them an opportunity to weigh in and they like being a part of that.
lauren
How did you decide what to price your video at when you first started?
phil
I kind of guessed, but luckily I had an hourly rate as a brand strategist that I had as a rough basis. Now I knew going into this that I couldn't charge for content creator work what I would charge for brand strategist work is what I've been doing for a decade. This was a newer vertical of the business. Yes, I'm bringing my expertise to it, but I'm relatively new. But I use it as a rough reference. So let's say even if I could earn half hourly, what I make in my normal my adult job I call it, then that's a good starting point. I will see nowadays there are moments where I actually make more as a creator than I do as a brand strategist, not always, because typically will, will work with a flat rate based on the time I think it's going to take. And because it's rinse and repeat, for the most part, sometimes edits take longer, sometimes there's more rounds of revision. And that's typically charged as a flat rate, half upfront half upon completion. But yeah, now I'd say it's much closer, sometimes even more as a creator, which is kind of wild.
lauren
It's amazing. How do you know if a sponsorship inquiry is legitimate?
phil
Ooo, that's a good question.
Lauren
What do you do to suss them out?
phil
Sometimes they'll surprise you. I will say, I guess in my case, because I'm working with brands and companies that have either a specific role the person I'm emailing with, or an agency that does this on their behalf. I've never really been jipped or had to deal with like non payment that hasn't really happened. And if and if I'm definitely well over 60 brands, I'm probably closer to 70 now, probably 75. I have had a few instances where I got a verbal agreement that we are moving forward and working together, sell good about it, started the project. So filmed the intro, and outro not the whole video, but then I never got prepayment. Kind of my fault for starting the video until I get paid. But I had a good feeling about it. So sometimes I just you know, I've got a shoot day coming up, start the video. That's happened a few times that happened actually fairly recently, someone within the brand approved the budget, but then they were fired. I ended up having to email with the CEO who said they were based in Turkey and couldn’t afford to pay that rate, we can't do this. So I cancelled it. Not a big deal. It's just the cost of you know, it's just the nature of this. But I will say overall, I like to absolutely get some money to start the project. I don't feel super comfortable starting it without money. And some brands are tricky about that. Sometimes I don't have a choice. Sometimes I have to deliver the whole project and then get paid in full.
lauren
But you would do that only for like a bigger one, right? Or a brand that you're really excited about.
Yeah, sometimes I have to do it and having a manager like she'll you know, that helps because she'll touch base with them, and she'll have a good feeling about it. But honestly, nine times out of ten payment is not an issue. Sometimes it's a little bit slower than I'd like but the world doesn't stop spinning. In that case.
lauren
Do you recommend that everyone has a contract in place? Yes,
phil
Yes, you definitely should have a contract, I would recommend budgeting as part of your costs. Up front, you'll obviously be able to make this back later but absolutely have a contract reviewed by a lawyer that protects you the added advantage of having a manager which you don't need from the onslaught in fact, a manager might not want to work with you until you've proven an ability to generate consistent income and projects because obviously they get paid when you get paid. So it's actually kind of good I think to manage it on your own until it becomes so overwhelming that it makes sense to hire someone to do it but I love having a manager. I don't read contracts you read contracts with clients stuff Ellie reads contracts with brands stuff. And I it's really good because things that I would just signed get it out of my inbox. She reads in details and she and she'll negotiate with them. We just went back six versions of a contract. Small project $1,500 or $2,000. But it's likely it'll be a monthly thing it'll continue and she was like no we still don't like this language. Can you change this? No, you still need to remove that. No you can't white label included in this project we charge additionally for that. She just takes care of that for me and that pays her you know her her cut of every deal and then some.
Lauren
Do you charge additional if someone's going to use your assets for advertising?
phil
Yes. Bingo. Bango. Bongo. Absolutely without question we charge more. Sometimes that fee is the lowest we've ever gotten is $200. We typically ask for more like 500 to 1000 for a creator at my size.
Lauren
But they wouldn't have copyright. They just have the ability to use it.
phil
And then there's an expiration date on our time, but that's called white listing. And it's really important that you negotiate separate terms for that, because essentially, they're getting a two for one deal not only you're you creating content that promotes stem, ideally out to your audience, but then they have the ability to use that as an advertisement and make them and write money on it. Exactly. So variable We're in to negotiate higher separate terms for that. I don't mind it, I don't mind it, but I don't want to brand making money off of my hard work. They're getting a two for one deal. I've already promoted them out to my audience. I don't think it's fair.
lauren
Is there anything that you wish you had done differently now that you've been doing this for a few years?
phil
No, there's nothing I wish I did differently other than maybe getting a manager sooner. But at the same time, having to manage that all on my own, enabled me to have an awareness of what I needed that person to do. I also wasn't actively looking for a manager, it just kind of happened organically. And even then we started slow. So she didn't work with some of my bigger brand deals. For example, that I already had a working relationship with and didn't really need help negotiating, it took a few months to kind of ease into it, learn how to work together. And that was awesome. Now, it's like, just amazing. But I also I feel the pressure, I want my manager to value me as a client. And even if she's got, you know, bigger influencers, I'm not a big influencer, they're gonna you know, she's gonna make more money from other people. But what can I do within my control to make that a good experience for her, I can make sure the clients are really happy with the content I create, and I can keep it fairly hands off for her. Elle has never gotten involved with the actual content. She doesn't need to because once it's in my hands as a creator, that's where I excel. And I don't think we've ever had an unhappy client.
lauren
And my final question for you, does someone need a media kit before they start doing sponsored deals?
phil
Do you need a media kit? No. Is it a good idea to go through the exercise of articulating the value of hiring you as a creator? Yes. It's a good idea to go through the exercise of compiling your numbers, your reach, pulling some examples of your best performing content, telling you a bit of a story around that, if you can't guarantee virality or reach, what can you guarantee examples might be high production quality, research, and SEO, ongoing, you know, modifications or changes to your content to make sure that it's maximized to perform well.
So sometimes we'll go back, change the title of a YouTube video or change the description, change the thumbnail, we'll do that sometimes. So really think about what you can deliver, so that the brand has some sense of like something to hold on to, that they know they're gonna get. I think that's really important. I think also be reasonable with your deadlines, your delivery times, I'm sometimes bad at that I'm too ambitious. And what I think I can do by a certain date, even then, if I'm falling slightly behind, I email the brand. And they're usually not too fussy about it, they just are happy that I'm communicating.
Communication. Finally, just communicating is so important. I heard from a friend once that when you email or when these brands email, you know, hundreds of people at a time, half the time they don't hear back from people. So even just to take the time to reply to a brand and say, hey, I'd love to learn more about working together, that already gives you an advantage from so many other people just being communicative.
lauren
Fantastic.
phil
Kind of interesting to unpack a brand new vertical that didn't exist three years ago. It's so cool. It's fun, it's fulfilling. And it really complements what I absolutely love to do. Just show up at my desk, begin to turn this light on a sit and write a script like this is what I love to do. It's what I absolutely love to do. And in addition to creating content and generating money, it makes me a stronger communicator, it makes me better on stage, and makes me better on a virtual stage to teach and deliver.
So I think for so many people out there, I'm not telling you to quit your job and do this full time. I'm asking you to consider how this could be integrated as a vertical in your business if you are already the type that creates social media content. You create courses, you do virtual trainings or programs, etc, coaching, this is such an exciting complement to what you do.
lauren
And I feel like we're kind of in the Gold Rush phase of creators and sponsorship deals where companies right now are willing to pay and not really require analytics and things like that, but I don't think that's going to be forever. I think you're gonna have it's gonna get more and more competitive and more demanding. I believe in a few years companies will be able to be more discerning. And so getting started on this and creating content now is important. So that way, when companies do become more discerning, you've already got a case built up of why you're like, you know, trustworthy and worth their money.
phil
I've said before, and this is my own bias, because this is the closest thing in business to what I had maybe studied in university, which was like media journalism, etc. But it's the closest thing to printing money that I've ever experienced. Not to say it's not hard work, it is hard work, but I enjoy every aspect of the work. And you're right, if anything, it's only gonna get harder. So you really benefit from starting now and building your platform, which will happen at its own pace. It'll happen at its own pace. It's taken me three years to get my Youtube channel to what you have on tick tock in six months. You know, don't compare apples to oranges. Don't worry about another person in your space that's growing faster. There's so many variables and things that impact this, but just know that you don't have to have a million followers to actually turn this into a viable business.
lauren
It's so cool. It's really, really exciting.
phil
We want to hear from you. Tell us what you're thinking. Is this something you want to integrate into what you're doing? Send us a DM we love that. @philpallen
lauren
@thelaurenmoore
phil
#brandtherapy. This was a fun one. Know that in an episode coming up, we're gonna have Elle queen, she's the best name, my manager and she has so many incredible insights on treating this as a business and she's worked with way bigger creators than me. We'll have so many insights make sure you check out that episode. If you enjoyed this episode, give us a review. And the podcast Apple podcast five star five star that helps other people discover this podcast that we work hard to create for you.
Until next time, we appreciate you hanging out with us right here on Brand Therapy. See you then.
lauren
Bye bye.
