192. How do you make money from brand deals? (f. Elle Queen)
Curious about the business of content partnerships? 🤝 Then you’re going to love this episode with Phil’s creator manager Elle Queen! Elle meets with hosts Phil and Lauren to discuss the ins and outs of sponsorships on social media, including what to charge, what to look for, and how to get started. She also details what she looks for in potential clients.
Episode transcription
Phil
Wondering how people get sponsored post deals?
Lauren
Curious about what to charge for an Instagram posts?
Phil
Thinking about getting a content deals manager?
Lauren
Then you're gonna love this episode with Phil's manager Elle Queen.
Phil
Elle has helped me unlock a whole new vertical in my business and I can't wait for you to learn from her.
Lauren
Let's get started.
Phil
Listener we've made it no secret that content creation has become extremely significant within our business here at PPC stands for Phil Pallen Collective.
Lauren
Companies about a year ago.
Phil
Oh, you're right. It changed. Yeah, right. No, but the brand is still Phil Pallen Collective.
Lauren
Yeah.
phil
Legally LLC changed now it's based in Florida legal legal. So for the first few years, I did all of this on my own. Brands would email me I'd figure out how much to charge usually not enough email back and forth, create the contents and the invoices, oh, sometimes sign a contract if they had one. I never had one. it was irresponsible. And we found out about this wonderful, wonderful human individual on our podcast with us for this conversation. Elle Queen, who is a, I guess a creator manager. I try not to use word influencer, you know, because now with like graduated to the term creator, Elle, how long have we been working together? It's not a year yet.
Elle
I think it'll be it'll be a year in the summer, June or July.
phil
Oh, my God, we need to celebrate that. Because let me just say, I don't even know if you realize how much we love and appreciate you. I don't even know if you know.
Lauren
And you're universally loved too Elle. We heard about you through Juli Bauer Roth, who I guess is our mutual client. And Juli, it just it kind of baffles my mind that Juli was like, yeah, Elle just tells me, hey, this brand wants to work with you for this much and then that's it. She takes care of everything. It really was, like fascinating. And so my first question for you is, was there a moment in your career before you started actually managing creators? Was there a moment when you thought, wow, there's a real business opportunity here for me with sponsored content deals?
Elle
Yeah, definitely. Well, first, it's also really awesome to work with you, Lauren, and Phil. And all the creators I work with, I feel super thankful to work with awesome people who are super talented. And I feel like I just help keep things running. And they're the people that really create all the magic. So I'd say I mean, I started my career, working on the brand side in the food industry, and was often the person hiring these people for to create content for us for the brand. And I think through that process, I really liked that side of my job, I worked in social and digital marketing for those brands and and liked that side of it.
And I thought to myself, you know, as we continued to hire people, I was like, you know, these people are mostly creative people and maybe don't understand the business side of things. And so is there a way that I can support them knowing that I have experience on the brand side, I know what brands are looking for, I could kind of be the in between person there.
I always tell people to my mom is an artist. And I'm definitely not an artistic or creative person. But I really like working with people who are. And so I think I bring kind of the the business side and the structure to the, you know, relationship I have with creators that I support. And so that's really what I enjoy about it. But I think the service that I provide has grown as the industry has grown. It's not the right fit for everybody. But I think as people get to a certain point in their business, they either end up hiring someone internally that works for them as an assistant or does a variety of other tasks as well. But most of the people I've worked with, I've worked with for 3,5,6 years. And so I really do view myself as an extension of their business at this point.
Lauren
Amazing.
Phil
Yeah. And I think it's cool, because your ideal client is someone that has probably arrived at a point where they've done everything themselves, or as you say, maybe in house, but they reach a point where they're in their own way by having to do everything, like contracts and stuff. I hate that. I mean, I'm on this podcast right now and with the two people that deal with contracts in my life, because Lord knows, I won't read it start to finish, it's physically impossible for me to read a contract from start to finish.
Lauren
Especially if it doesn't look pretty.
phil
Yeah, if it's an ugly contract, in ariel, forget it, I'm gonna sign that shit and get it out of my inbox and out of my life until it comes back to haunt me later. But, I don't want to deal with that. But at the same time, I think I had to do the work to build this pillar of my business first so that there's incentive for you to want to be a part of it because it's work on your part as well. I like having you because it also puts healthy pressure on me, I know that I'm smaller as a creator than a lot of your clients, but I also work hard to make sure that it's fairly hands off for you once the contracts are signed. And I think that is the case, we've never had an unhappy brand. Normally, it's an email from them going, Wow, we love it, you made this so easy, because I get to focus on what I love doing and what I'm best at, which is creating content. And that's so cool.
Elle
For sure. And I think that's my ultimate goal on the support that I provide is to let creators focus on the things that they're really good at. So creating content, engaging with their audience, understanding their audience, all those kinds of things, and I try to take off their plate, the back and forth the contracts to things like that. And I always tell people to, I can't make partnerships come out of thin air, right? Like, you have to have an audience, you have to have a developed voice, you have to have a compelling reason for brands to want to work with you. And that can take a variety of forms, you know, I work with people of all sizes.
And just because you have a large audience doesn't mean also that brands are going to want to work with you. I think the engagement and building a solid audience that trusts and engages with you on a regular basis is really what brands are looking for. So I do think it's less about the numbers and, and more about the engagement that you're able to build, I work with a gal who has a, you know, what I would say is like a small Instagram following, but she works with a couple of brands that I know are really you know, CPA driven and want to see sales from the content that they're paying her for. And she really does drive that even though she has a smaller audience. So it's also my job to help tell that story to brands too. So when I decide to work with people, you know, understanding what their strengths are, where their audience is engaging with them, and then being able to communicate those things to brands. Because they can only see kind of the shiny object, the followers on the outside, but they want to know what works well for that creator. Where are they, you know, best engaging with their audience? How can we create the best partnership that will get the brand in front of their audience.
Lauren
When you mentioned the client you have who has a smaller Instagram following? Like, what number are we talking? I
Elle
It's like 22,000 on Instagram.
lauren
Oh, cool. And that crater still gets good brand deals?
elle
She does. And her story views are around two to 3000. But she'll get hundreds of link clicks on certain content. And I think that's kudos to her really because her audience trusts her. She's, you know what I always tell people like if there's if you're starting out and you're you want to work with brands, I think the best way to do that is to talk about brands that you use and love regularly and share those with your audience. Even though you're not being paid to like authentically sharing about things that you use in love is the best way to start those conversations with brands. So tagging them on stories or on Instagram. And a lot of times brands will repost that content or respond via DMS. And I think that can be a great way to get the conversation started.
Phil
Another thing that that does that I didn't realize, before I started doing it was talking about the brands that you know and love and already use also then registers for the competitors of those brands. I didn't anticipate that happening. I just did it kind of organically, because I'm geeky when it comes to trying new apps and tools that you can integrate into your business, social media, schedulers, AI tools. And what I've noticed is that when I talk about one, then within three months, competitors, obvious competitors of those brands come knocking on my door going, hey, yeah, we'd love for you to create, we'd love for you to be a part of our affiliate program. And here's what they get back from me. And then they go, Okay, well, we can pay you dig meaning. And then you see me talking about those competitors, because we're, we very rarely sign exclusive deals. So that's another benefit of that, I think.
Elle
For sure. Yeah, I think it helps kind of build some authority. And that really, to me comes back to understanding things that you guys work on right, understanding your brand, what your voice is, who you're connecting with, what kinds of things people that follow you want to learn about, I just encourage people to dive into their analytics and understand what are people most interested about? When are they watching my videos? Or watching my stories? Or looking at my blog, you know, what are those things that are of interest to my audience? And how can I find ways to do more of those things?
lauren
Is there an actual number that you look for with engagement rate that you consider to be good? Like on Instagram?
elle
I don't think there's a specific number. I also think it Instagram can be so finicky that it's like depending on the content, the engagement, the reach can vary so wildly. It's hard to put an exact number on that when I look at someone's channel. I think the things I'm more interested in is do they have a defined approach for what their brand is like, Can I look at their Instagram, their blog, whatever their channel is? And say like, Yes, I understand what you want to talk about what your brand is about. And so for more of a strategy standpoint, I think about that. But from an engagement rate, I don't think so I also brands rarely asked for like, what is your engagement rate? They want to know, what are your stories views? Or what are your sending your 30 day reach on reels more specific stats versus like an overall engagement, right? Just because it can, can change so much, depending on what the channel is, what the content is.
lauren
Do you find that brands pay more for specific platforms, or brands generally willing to put down more dollars for an Instagram post?
elle
Yes, the most of the work that I do is on Instagram. And the most common partnerships are stories right now for sure, which is interesting, you know, knowing that then they disappear for 24 hours, that's really interesting. It's a balance of how much is reasonable to charge for something that only lives for 24 hours, but also, some creators I work with can drive 1000s of link clicks from a story, you know, that is live for 24 hours and drive 1000s of dollars of sales. So that's worth something. So yes, Instagram, I'd say is the most popular stories, followed by reels and then posts I get here and there less frequently, though. And then blog posts, we still do some of and then obviously work with Phil on his YouTube stuff. And then I've also seen tick tock definitely has continued to grow. I'll be curious to see what happens with that over the next six months. But I do see brands doing more in that space, or at least being willing to experiment. So a lot of times we'll offer you know, we'll share this reel on Instagram and we'll post it on tiktok as well. I do feel like it's still the wild wild west over there in terms of partnerships and brands knowing what they want to accomplish there. But I am seeing more on that channel too.
Phil
Get ready for your next client. She's blowing up on tiktok. Lauren's gone from zero to 31 or 32,000 on tiktok.
Lauren
Passed 32 yesterday.
Elle
That's awesome. It is one of those where you can grow like an exponential amount in a short period of time. One thing that I think is interesting, that I've been dealing with a few of my clients is whitelisting. So brands being granted the access to run ads from your channels so they can control the what the what the copy looks like they can you know, mess with the video and then be able to direct it to different audiences that they create. And tiktok allows that ability as well. And some of the creators I work with are a little bit hesitant to do it on Instagram. There's some chatter that it affects engagement rate or negatively impacts your account. I've never been able to specifically tie anything to that. But there are rumblings of that. But on tick tock when folks I work with have done whitelisting campaigns there, they've seen tremendous audience growth in that period of like 30 to 40,000 over a week long, whitelisting campaign. So I think that's interesting, too. When you think about pricing and the benefits of partnering with a brand and what the benefit is to you. I think that whitelisting on tiktok has been something that's been fun, interesting to see how that works. In comparison to Instagram. It's just so hard to grow on Instagram these days. That is so hard. You know, anytime you see that large growth on any channel, I think it's something to pay attention to.
phil
Maybe it's not hard, I think it's just so incredibly time consuming. Yeah, to put in the time that's required to grow. I mean, you can find out the steps you need to take to grow. The truth is I share those steps, but I don't actually practice them myself. Because Instagram is not my priority platform, YouTube is. So I don't grow that much on Instagram, because I don't spend the time that it takes required to grow because that time gets diverted in many other ways that are more of a priority to me.
lauren
I think the visual standards on Instagram are way higher, too. So it takes much longer.
phil
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. How do you decide how much to charge? And this question stems from knowing that the second I get you involved, you pretty much pay for yourself, because you charge more than I would ask for. And actually this is embarrassing sometimes on client calls with Lauren where she's pitching a client at the end of a brand audit recap or you know sharing the prices actually turned the volume down. So it gives me anxiety.
lauren
I like to remove you from those calls now because I don’t want you giving away anything for free.
phil
Yeah, right. I find it really stressful. And Elle your emails are like they're like email version of that is when I go oh my god, I can't believe we're quoting this brand in Turkey that probably that's what they pay a salary employee, oh my God, but then they go for it. We know and we negotiate down slightly, but we know that and you know what? I'm gonna stop talking let you answer the question. But like, by the end of the project, I always think to myself, you know what, she charged the right amount. When I looked at how long I spent on this and the quality of what we output, that was how much we were supposed to charge for this project.
elle
I always tell people that rates are fluid. So there's never rules around you know exactly what to charge and there's no formula that you can use that will pop out, you know exactly what number you need to charge, I always tell people go out with a number that's maybe a little bit higher than what you normally charge and then have a number in mind, that's like the drop dead lowest that you would go for a brand that you really love. And we usually end up somewhere in between that. So whenever I talk to brands, I try to keep it fairly open, and at least let them know like, this is what we typically charge. But if there's a budget you'd like to stay within, let me know. And we can see what we can do, then that's mostly for brands that you use and love on a regular basis. I wouldn't say that for every single brand. But I do think when you're ready to hire a manager, it is helpful to have them on your side because money is awkward to talk about. I don't care what business you are, who you are, it's just an uncomfortable topic. And so I do think it helps having someone like me that's dedicated to like, that's part of my job is to help get those rates. And so at this point, it's not I don't feel uncomfortable talking about it. But I do think it helps having someone in your corner that can kind of back you up. when it comes to rates.
lauren
I found Jenna Kutcher’s new media kit online through a Google Drive link that I guess is public and searchable that maybe she and her team are not totally aware of. But it's on Google. And Jenna Kutcher has set rates for everything like a menu. What are the downsides of something like that?
elle
So most of the clients I work with too do have set rates like in a media kit, or you know, we have agreed upon what we try to get to. I think it's a good starting place, I would say just be flexible with those because brands have budgets, they're trying to stay within two. And so I really think it's it's a negotiation, it's not a I only charge 10,000. and there's no wiggle room. I think understanding what your ceiling is and what your basement is, in terms of what you want to be making is really the most important part, I do think it's helpful to put those numbers on a media kit, because there are brands that reach out that don't understand that they need to pay for the content, or like Phil said, they just offer an affiliate partnership. And so being able to go out saying, you know, here's my media kit, these are my typical rates, it's helpful to just level set that conversation and be able to be talking, you know, the same language, when brands reach out.
I find it's helpful to because some brands will reach out and they like want to immediately hop on a call. And I'm happy to do that, but it's also like, I want to understand, if you have budget from the start, you know, I don't want to get on a call. And they say like, oh, we can send you free product. And you can get 10% of this $6 granola bar or something like that, you know, that's not worth anyone's time. So I do think it helps start the conversation in the right spot when brands reach out.
elle
I tried to protect the access to you, and so that you even though I know you're happy to I try to filter them, obviously a lot of that, well, just due to the nature of my niche, I get a lot of inbound people see the competitors of the brands that I've talked about. And that opens up Pandora's box to every other related app. So I get a ton of inbound. But I actually don't have those automatically forward to Elle because I'd say 50% of them are garbage. So I'll normally have a pretty canned response back of an email templates and back to clarify the scope or the goals of what they're looking for. That's just me saying get out of my inbox and give me more detail to allow me to assess if this is worth more than two minutes, then it goes to Elle. So we have our own little process. Even on our website, Phil pallen.co/sponsorships, Elle’s picture is there and there's this cool little interactive form. And those go to me and Elle. I wish more people use that. Instead, I get my emails listed in databases, but I'm kind of happy because then you don't get all the crap. It's exciting that we get so much inbound, but then sometimes they're not as high quality they want to do a brand deal for $200 and we don't do that. Another thing that's interesting this happened literally last week, a brand that I've worked with in years previous someone new was in the role got on a call with Elle obviously that's a no brainer. We get on a call well I wasn't on the call but you get on a call on my behalf. We know they've paid before this guy thought it was going to be a pure affiliate deal. He didn't know that he had to pay us at least a good affiliate percentage 40% But still we don't work for free we don't work for exposure. Like we don't work for pure affiliate sales. That's dumb. Anyways, happy ending he paid us and I'm in the middle of working on that video but just an example that you never know where it's going to start. You never know.
elle
Yeah, and do I think when you're starting out, it is worth replying to those emails. And some something that I tell other clients I work with is, or I'll respond back for them is if a brand reaches out and like, clearly they are only offering free product or an affiliate partnership, I always reply back something like, thanks so much for reaching out, we definitely be interested in trying the product, if there's a way for us, or if you'd be interested in working together in a bigger way, here's our media kit and our rate sheet, let us know if that's of interest, let them know if it is something you're interested in. But that it takes a little, you know, we would like a little bit more than free product.
elle
That's also a very respectful way of phrasing it because I imagine some creators who maybe don't have the tactfulness that you do might be like, I don't do affiliates, and then like, leave it at that. So it's nice that you leave the door open.
elle
Yeah, and you know, I will say too, there have been so many times where a brand reached out with free product or affiliate stuff, we let them know, we're not prioritizing those kind of partnerships right now. But we'd love to keep in touch for the future. And they come back 612 18 months later and say, Hey, we've got budget, we're putting together a more formal program, we thought of you first. And so I think that too, is you know, the benefit of having someone dedicated to brand partnership work for you. I think there's a lot that's missed when you get to a certain level where lots of brands are reaching out, just keeping track of all that stuff. I think it's helpful from a follow up perspective and just an organization perspective, to have someone on your team who's consistently touching base with brands that you want to work with. I use Asana to just to track the outreach and follow ups that I do. But I think just staying top of mind, for agencies and brands that are doing this kind of work is really beneficial.
phil
You are very careful with who you decide to work with. And I love that. You really think through to make sure that the person is a good partner for the way that you work, and obviously what you expect, obviously, because they need to work they need to deliver in order for you to get paid. So I think it makes a lot of sense. But how do you decide who you want to work with who you say yes to?
elle
Good question. I think there's a variety of things that I think about first, I'd like to get on a call with the person just to get an idea of their business a little bit about what they're looking for. I think as I mentioned before, the support that I provide, I can't make partnerships appear out of thin air. So in order for me to start working with someone, they need to be having consistent outreach from brands or partnerships on a fairly consistent basis.
When I first started out, I worked mostly with people in the food industry, just because that was my background and where most of my connections were. But I think over time, I've realized that the service I provide really goes across any industry I know like nothing about tech and AI like Phil does, but I think that the support that I provide doesn't really matter what industry it's in, it's really about the support provided kind of on the back end. So things that I look at, I mean, it’s think personality fit is important. So I'm a one person team, there's a lot of talent management agencies out there where you'd work with a bigger team. So I like working with people that they probably have a pretty small internal team, if not just themselves running their business. I just think that's the best fit for the kind of service that I provide. So I think personality, fit size of kind of business is important, consistent brand partnerships coming through, and then just say, an understanding of the communication and the responsiveness that I need in order for me to be able to do my job.
So a lot of people I work with, I talk to text Voxer, Marco Polo, whatever, every single day, going back and forth about questions, and what size product do you want? And when do you want it to come through, and I need someone on their end to be able to respond in a quick manner, relatively, a lot of these things move pretty quickly. So I think that's important to being responsive.
And then I think lastly is just making sure that I feel comfortable with the kind of content that they're creating, like I can wrap my head around their business and their goals and their approach of how they want to work with brands. So that I don't think matters as much industry wise, but being able to look at their profile and say like, I understand the kinds of brands that they want to work with based on things that they're talking about. Like you look at Phil's channel, it's very obvious the types of brands, the content that he's sharing. And so I do think that understanding that like branding perspective of yourself as a creator is important too.
elle
Yeah, I think by the way, you're always in my top five of like, text message conversation, like recently. Yeah, because you respond quickly, and I try to respond quickly to you, because it's just too easy. And we have like we it's just it's down to a science. It's like, hey, Phil, look at this report that has your content, and then I'll look at it and it's like easy. Send me a screenshot of this. What do you think about this? I just got off with a call with this brand that I forgot that you were meeting with. I told them it was this amount, I'm like, damn, really, they want to move forward with it, boom, bang, bang, it's just so fun to not have to do it alone. You know, it's just it's so nice to have that support. It also within our business, like Lauren is so busy on the client side that I there's no more space for me to bring new things to her about something new. I mean, occasionally, I'll say, Lauren, oh, my God, look, you know, I just tried out this new platform Sessions, it's way cooler than zoom, we should use it in our business. Or hey, I'm working with any word again, like, I'll give you little updates, but you like it's just a thing that operates independent of you, you then come to me and say, oh, my God, you did a really you had a really good month with brand deals.
lauren
Like a nice little surprise when I look at our planning sheet with income.
phil
Yeah, because it's just continuing. It's continuing to grow, which is just awesome. And it's fun. It's so fun.
elle
Yeah, I'd say like anytime that I've stopped working with someone, or we've mutually agreed to go different directions, it's either like lack of communication, or I haven't been able to drive the amount of partnerships that they maybe had in mind. Those are kind of the two areas where sometimes things don't end up working out. But I think in general, the communication is really the most important piece. Because at the end of the day, I'm kind of like an assistant, right? I'm involved in every aspect of the brand partnership process. And there's a lot of details and a lot of back and forth that goes into that. So that communication piece is huge.
lauren
Back to pricing. I remember, we worked with a big food blogger a couple of years ago, and she needed her media kit updated. And this was before I really knew anything about how sponsored deals worked. And she mentioned that she has additional fees to give copyright and additional fees, if the content is going to be used as advertisements by the company. Is there like a rule of thumb or at least a starting point of how much you should charge additionally, for those things? Like if you know, let's say like, your ceiling is 1000, your basement is $500. And they want to get copyright or they want to use your content for ads. Like where do you even begin with pricing for that?
elle
Yes, I would say almost everyone I work with that's an additional fee as well, for paid usage. I mentioned whitelisting earlier. So the way I usually calculate that industry standard is about 30% of the partnership fee per 30 days. So let's say they were paying you $900 for the content, if they wanted 30 days of paid usage, I'd charged an additional $300. And that that's usually I'd say anywhere between 20 and 30% is pretty standard for that. Anything beyond that, like if they want usage in perpetuity to use anywhere that almost I would say doubles the price, depending on how long they're going to use it if the usage renews at a certain point. I think there's a lot of factors to consider there. But I'd say the most common thing that I see is the brands more and more wanting paid advertising usage of the content for a certain amount of time.
lauren
Where do you see just the brand deals industry going like a few years from now, what are your predictions?
elle
Gosh, it's so hard to predict, because I feel like it changes all from him. It definitely keeps everyone on their toes. I will say, you know, I started doing this about six and a half years ago. And things have changed a lot in that time period. When I first started, I was working with a lot of you know, quote unquote, traditional food bloggers, and doing a lot more on blogs. So a lot more longer form content, a lot more brands like sponsoring recipes to be included in blogs. And I've definitely seen that decrease quite a bit over the past two to three years. I think it's hard to tie a return to like a long form blog post. At the end of the day, I think people are still shopping in store for food, right. So that makes it even trickier to tie that when it's more of an awareness tactic.
But so I definitely seen that decrease quite a bit. I've seen increases in stories, partnerships significantly over the past two to three years. Brands partnering with people that have high stories, views, and by high I say anywhere between like 10,000 views per frame and up and brands wanting to include link stickers on those stories and be able to directly tie the money that they are spending in that moment to a sale on direct to consumer on their website. So I've seen more and more of that. Vdeo content continues to be at the forefront and I think we'll continue to do so. One thing I think that's an interesting thing to think about as the industry continues to evolve is creators and influencers partnering with brands to create specific products, so I've seen a few creators do this, where they'll like partner with a brand that they love and have promoted in the past. And they'll create like a flavor of, I don't know, protein powder, or like a bar that's branded with the creator and the brand, and then sell that. And I think they probably get a cut of whatever those sales are, too. So I think that's interesting kind of co branded products. And then also, I've seen a lot of creators investing in small brands, and then they'll share about those brands on stories too, and disclose that they're, you know, have invested a certain amount of money to help grow those brands. So I think that's something that's interesting, too, is just the brands and creators getting closer in their partnerships, right? So less transactional, more collaborative, and really utilizing both of their networks, both of their audiences to promote the brand. And at the end of the day, drive sales.
phil
Every time that I have a conversation with you, or I tell Lauren, an anecdote about you sometimes like getting firm with a brand or I tell her those little stories, Lauren always replies, I love Elle, she wrote it to me on our Slack channel within 30 seconds.
laUREN
You’re so strategic, but also action oriented. And you've found a way I think, to create logical systems in a world that kind of feels like the Wild West, it has no logic, no logic whatsoever.
elle
Well, I think the whole talent manager industry has a really bad connotation. I think people have had bad experiences with certain folks or agencies. And to me, it's just like the service I provide, I never want someone to feel like, Oh, I'm paying Elle her percentage, like it wasn't worth it like that is what drives me to do a good job. I always want people to feel like I've gone above and beyond to and that it's, you know, totally worth the percentage fee that I charge. And so that's really what I want at the end of the day is for brands to be happy, the creators I work with to be happy at all to be one happy family. Happy circle.
phil
Absolutely, it's teamwork. That's how it feels. I think when it works, and it's successful. I would say disclaimer to people. If you're thinking about starting this, you don't need ally right away, you need to prove yourself first right ally gets paid when you get paid. So you need to build this first and get enough traction to the point where you feel slight overwhelm. to then go you know what I need a partner in crime, at least that's my anecdote, build this build proof of concept, have some experience in the trenches that'll inform then how you're able to navigate together as a partnership with Elle, as a manager with anyone as as a manager that you choose.
elle
Yeah, focus on growing your audience, defining what it is that you're great at what you really excel in, and then build those relationships. I think at the end of the day, this industry is a relationship based industry. And people hire again and again, people that do good work, respond to emails in a timely manner, and do what they say they're going to do. And if you consistently do those things, and are able to grow your audience, you will have partnerships, I think, at the end of the day, because I think being easy to work with in this industry, and doing what you say you're going to do is so underrated and so many people do not do that. And if you do that you will stand out.
phil
Correct. Normally at this point in the podcast, I'd say how do you want to promote yourself or give your contact information? We're not giving your contact information. So if you've listened to this episode, and you think that you want an intro to Elle, then you can contact me. I'm busy protecting her from you. I am your gatekeeper. We are not telling people how to get in touch with you. That's what's different about this episode.
elle
I am always happy to have conversations with folks and understand their businesses. And if it's not the right fit to work together now, you know, love to keep in touch with people. And that's definitely happened where they've been able to grow their business to a point where it makes sense to work together. So I'm always up for a conversation but appreciate your gatekeeping.
phil
So yeah, that's step two. Step one is getting through me. Exactly. We appreciate you. Thank you so much for hanging out with us on brand therapy. This has been delightful.
elle
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it
phil
Oh, Elle, you are the best thank you for such an awesome conversation. Listen, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Revealing some of our secrets today on certainly one of our fastest growing verticals of our business. If you enjoyed this episode, you know what to do leave us a review in Apple podcasts five star prophesied that helps other people discover this podcast that we worked very hard to create for you every single week and you know how it works. We'll be back next week with some brand new discussions and things to talk about. We will see you then.
