75. How do food brands survive the pandemic? (f. David Lemley)
What does it take for a food brand to survive during the pandemic? 🍽 In this episode, food enthusiasts and brand strategists Phil and Lauren discuss the recipe to food brand success with guest Retail Voodoo President David Lemley. A fellow brand strategist, David reflects on his experience with Starbucks, Sur la Table, and more to share branding ideas that set food brands apart in tough times. For anyone in—or passionate about—food or branding, this is the episode for you.
Episode transcription
Phil
Hey listener before we dive right into this episode, I want to tell you about something super, super exciting. We just launched Content Mastery our video course with over 20 videos, worksheets, resources, you're gonna love this. If you are someone who struggles with your content strategy, oh my gosh, this course is for you. It will take you through everything you need to know to ace your content strategy. Now, as a listener of our podcast, we're offering you something very, very special. Use coupon therapy to make this course $99 full price $299. What an amazing deal for you. We appreciate you for being a listener. Thanks. Now onto the episode.
Phil:
Well, hello, welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil.
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren.
Phil:
And this is the podcast where we help you position build and promote your brand. Now listen, I am glad you're here today. Of all the episodes that you've picked, maybe this is your first, maybe you're a repeat listener. You're in for a treat today because we are doing something different and I mean different. conversation with someone who does what we do. How about that for drama? Yes. gasp away. Give us a little preview.
Lauren
Okay, great. So we are going to be speaking with another West Coast based brand strategist. He owns a successful branding agency that has worked with a crazy amount of brands if you read the brand description and also listen to a few seconds into the episode, you will hear all those incredible food brands but we're focusing today on how can food brands survive the pandemic. We all know that every industry has been hit particularly hard by the pandemic. Well, nearly every industry I should probably say but food brands are really one of the the big industries that have been affected. So David Lemley as a food branding expert is going to be weighing in and giving advice for everyone in the food industry. So even if you don't work in food, I think there's some really awesome lessons here. And I'm excited.
Phil:
I agree. It's interesting that grocery stores are thriving, but restaurants are not last. They have a really strong brand and a really strong takeout business. Interesting how there's such divide right now and in a way that people couldn't even have anticipated. David is so nice. He's so nice. We should just get to the interview because he is so kind. I love this chat. And I'm so excited to share it with you.
Lauren:
If you want to feel warm and fuzzy. Keep listening to this episode. Oh, yes. Here's our conversation with David.
Phil:
Okay, now I am very excited for this today, our brand new branding friend, David is on the line. David, you're based in Seattle. I believe if I did my research correctly, you are president of Retail Voodoo and you have some insane credentials under your belt, which includes rebranding the coffee chain that we all know Starbucks. So I am just so excited to have you here today. I know Lauren feels the same way. Welcome to Brand Therapy.
David:
Thank you so much, Phil and Lauren for inviting me on Brand Therapy. I am stoked to be here.
Phil:
Um, How fun is this to have another brand friend Lauren, we have a new friend, a new branding friend.
Lauren:
Oh my gosh, David, I have so many questions for you. I hope you have a few minutes. Because it's so interesting because to me, and I guess we'll just launch right into it, but to me it's good branding food and beverage In my opinion is a completely different ballgame from branding like a standard company or even like a brick and mortar store. I feel like I don't know. It's just so interesting. There's so many more considerations when it comes to packaging and the experience in person how you show that in person experience online. One question I did have for you is what are some of your favorite food brands right now and why.
David:
I love so many brands, I have to tell you, you know, I'm living and breathing this 24 seven, so I'm always in there. But right now, the ones that are really making me proud to even say that I know them are the ones that are out there doing something to be a calm and positive force during this whole COVID-19 shutting thing. And so I want to start with my favorite, favorite brands right now are LesserEvil, Essentia and Loma Linda. Maybe you've heard of some of them, and maybe you haven't. But what they're doing is they're actually going out and loving people right where they are. They're doing the thing to be being a voice of reason and a voice of availability. And they are helping keep their people working. And they are helping their community where they live to have access to whatever they can.
So they're giving away food, they're giving away product, they're talking people through and now out here in the West and Washington State, we're not supposed to even go near each other. But there's still a way for people to connect. And I think people could be inspired by what these brands are doing because they are using hope, as inject common decency among people and not fear mongering. And I think that is really as a brand, it's important to be into them rather than to sound the alarm.
Lauren:
I love that it's almost like by being like a reader assuring part of your day, even if it's a small part, it kind of, I don't know, sets you apart from the other food brands that are like limited time only by wallets available of the store during this crazy time. I will say I've tried LesserEvil’s popcorn before, I think it was the slightly sweeter one, the Himalayan pink salt and it's, it's psychotically good. It's so delicious. And now I'm actually thinking I should probably stock up on some Lesser Evil popcorn. So good.
David:
It's dumb. It's simple. It's all of those things. And while the products are amazing, when I talk about the brand and why I love it, I'm really talking about their leadership and how they treat their employees and how they're treating the community and how they are rallying people together even when we can't be together. And oh, by the way, they make killer stuff.
Phil:
This is interesting. I love where you're going with this. So my burning passion For you, because we've actually never on the podcast had another quote unquote branding expert, expert, like all different experts define branding in all different ways. You know, so I sometimes give an example of like Jeff Bezos defines branding as what people say about you when you're not in the room. Gary Vee says it's key to monetizing your passion online. When I talk about branding, I say it's really about recreating the in person experience, like what makes you awesome in real life. How can we recreate that online, which I feel like is pretty pointed right now. David, I want to know, what is your definition of branding? What's your perspective on this?
David:
Yeah, my definition is very, we use the Jeff Bezos quote a lot around here because we want to have it be a third party endorsement that’s really how you get to that which is what people say about you when you're not in the room is that underneath a brand is a promise and then there's another part of the equation, anybody can make a promise, but it's the way in which you decide to keep it. And then how the end user feels about the promise you made and the way you kept it, and how they feel right below their heart in their body. That is your brain.
Lauren:
Wow, I love that.
Phil:
I love that. I've never heard it defined in that way. That's refreshing and awesome. And again, I don't know, I feel like our work is really important right now, as we now look to the reality of literally social distancing, destroying some businesses, we can't physically be together. We can't physically rely on being in close proximity right now. So so much is happening online. I love that definition. I guess to even launch into like what's happening right now, what are your general thoughts on people succeeding and some people not succeeding? Not that we were in anticipating a global pandemic but, have you made any observations or creative pivots that you've seen businesses do that you've been impressed by?
David:
Yeah, they're everywhere. And I think that the ones that are really impressing me that I know are going to be beloved, and dominate in the future, are the ones who are leading with love. They're leading with love. How can I help you now right where you are? Can I give you food? Can I make you feel better? Can I let you use my technology to create community? Can I take my normal media spend and turn it to talk to something that's going to make you the network of people that make my brand feel more human and feel safe, and to see bright hope in the future, even in a day where you might be shut in.
I think, you know, examples of that that are really powerful to me. I think you know what? brands like Doordash is doing that really well or they have changed Their whole POV because they are the ones helping restaurants stay in business. It's they have just made it all about they are the access point or the conduit between humans who need to eat and entrepreneurial restaurants who need to stay afloat through this.
Lauren:
Yeah, it's interesting. I got a notification the other day that even Uber Eats. I mean, Uber has been met with so much controversy over the years, but even Uber Eats has waived all delivery fees, because they understand that food, I guess food is can be a source of comfort and almost normalcy for people who are social distancing, who are quarantine. And it's just interesting that even a company like Uber, recognized the importance of acknowledging that during these times.
David:
eah, it's good. I mean, I really think that it comes back to that whole idea don't worry about the short term sale. I think the brands that are really emphasizing that, are getting it wrong. I got a mailer, I am you know, I come from a design background I do strategy I'm the creative class all those sorts of things and there's this brand called CB2 which is a spin off of Crate and Barrel.
Lauren:
I’m at my CB2 desk right now.
David:
Okay so you like them you like their stuff, they got the vibe, they get the big, thick chunky wood they got all that they got it all happening right? The big extra thick carpet, everything. I got an email in a postcard from them on the same day and my first thought as a marketer was okay, you're dialed in they got it. And then the mailer and proceeded to say you should buy this totally kick ass designer freezer to stock up on all your quarantine supplies and you should have this awesome miniature tearaway desk and give them to all your employees and I got mad because that to me was opportunistic.
It was not meeting me where I was. It was actually saying, you're going to look friggin good as the world comes to a crashing halt. And to me, that's not the right message to send out. Whereas if they had delivered the same thing and spoke differently about it or had different stuff, photography, I might be, I might have cared more rather than they were being opportunistic. Does it make sense?
Lauren:
It totally does it. My question for you is, do you think there would ever be an appropriate time for CB2 to send that message if there wasn't a pandemic happening, for example, or is it just completely opportunistic? Bottom line, that type of messaging shouldn't be sent.
David:
I think it was opportunistic bottom line and that shouldn't be sent because you know what, uh, you love CB2, I love CB2, I'm angry with them right now, but angry is a strong word. I'm disappointed. But would you ever think to google stand up freezer at CB2? So even having that product available is opportunistic.
Lauren:
Yeah, like I'm trying to think of how it could have been different, but maybe CB2 send that postcard and email and said, hey, we want to have her I do come for. So all of our bedding and our blankets and throws are on sale. So you can create a cozy nest while you're tucked in. And then here are some nice things that we're also doing for our employees and community. Maybe that's I don't even know if that would have been appropriate.
David:
That would have been cool. And then they could take it one step further and say, since you're probably replacing pillows, and cool cozies they're in your house because winter just got over anyway, and maybe we got six more weeks of winter maybe you could donate those, we'll help you collect them and give them to people. That would be a good citizen brand, rather than just trying to sell me stuff.
Phil:
Listen, listen, sweetheart. This is why we're employed, isn't it? This is why we have jobs. These are all really good. ideas. And I actually think David and Lauren, I actually think that brands talk down to their audience without obviously doing it on purpose. But these are the kinds of brainstorms and considerations that need to happen at every level. I don't care if you're CB2, I don't care if you're someone famous, I don't care if you're just launching your brand, these are the kinds of things you need to think through.
My biggest irk is when a brand a big brand will post the same status update or piece of content on every single social media platform at the same time. And I know you're not trying to talk down to me, but it certainly feels that way. Right? It's like, really, you need to tell me exactly the same thing as you think I didn't read it when I saw it a second ago on this platform. It sometimes takes an extra second to just reposition and slightly for that audience and platform. And in what you've highlighted, it's like how can we just think through this a different way. Those are the kinds of small details that really compound into how we experience these brands. I think.
David:
I think that's fair. I mean, think of it like this, if you're communicating outside of a marketing channel, just think for a second when you're talking to your friends, and you want to share a story with your friends. How do you tell your if you think all of the different channels, you know, I think it's that, you know, LinkedIn is the head, and I'm gonna mess it up, that there's a list of them a since we're recording this for me, it's in my book.
Phil:
I know what you're talking about. I can't recite it either. But I know what you're talking about.
David:
So LinkedIn is your head, Facebook is your heart, Instagram is the soul and Twitter's your mouth. So think of it like this, you're going to go communicate using those channels. And then you're going to tell the story. Well, how do you talk to your significant other versus your sister or brother or your cousin, or your mailman or whoever is in your network? And if you think of it like that, and just take the message accordingly, you can say the same thing really emotionally or it can be much more broadcast like and just use that to take that filter of having kind of a relationship with people rather than using it at the broadcast channel. And I think that that is what many brands are not doing well right now.
Lauren:
I have a question for smaller businesses, like I'm thinking of the single location restaurants in my community or for like a food brand that maybe is just starting. What's your advice for them on getting through the pandemic, if they can't necessarily afford to give back right now?
David:
Yeah, I think if they cannot afford to give back the they can find ways to do things that are really interesting. There's a company in again, Seattle because again, right now in COVID-19, I'm, while I have it, a national and even international group of people that I work with, I'm emphasizing what can I do to love people in my little 50 mile radius because that's where my community is. That's where my family my cousins, my classmates, all those people are here. So I'm trying to do that. So my references are all gonna probably default to local. That said, there's a brand a restaurant where I went to high school graduation celebration dinner and it also celebrated anniversaries and, you know, big business and it's a place where you go and it's, it's the pinnacle of dining. And so, you know, they're pretty much you would think, who's gonna go to an incredibly fine dining experience when you're not supposed to out?
But what they did is they took their kitchen in order to keep their people employed, they converted all three of their their known locations into like a drive thru burger joint and so you can get like gourmet food comfort food, in a bag like a meal kit already heat me and you can order it online, pick it up, and they will bring it out to you. And you can get it in your car. So they completely reinvented their business model in order to keep the people working and serve their community.
So I think you can do good and do well. I think the key is to not try to focus on how do I make cash? How do I do this right now, if I were a small business and I were suffering through this, I would find ways to combine my think tank and my resources with other small businesses in the community to try to see what we could do to keep people employed to keep people remembering us and see how we can meet them. Where they are, if they're shutting or if they're afraid, or if they're any of those things. Find what is needed and try to connect to it.
Phil:
I love that you and I are so on the same page while also Lauren because we've been we've had an interesting few weeks in trying to just flesh out our position on this. And I'm so curious to get your take on this. We came right out of the gate encouraging our followers and listeners and everyone who reads and consumes what we post, that it is the time to help not necessarily sell.
Now, that's what I said a few days into this right at the beginning, obviously, businesses are going to need to sell their products. I'm not saying people need to give everything they have away for, you know, for free. But I'm saying I'm encouraging people to lead with their heart lead with being of service to people. And I've actually gotten some flack on this. I've had DMS, I've had replies, I've had comments, people saying, how dare you take this position? I'm a small business owner, and I still need to pay my employees. Why are you telling me that I'm not allowed to do that?
So then I know I have colleagues who have taken a different position and they've had the opposite people saying like, why are you selling things so it's a fine line. What is your take on this right now in terms of what's appropriate right now?
David:
It's such a provocative question. And I'll tell you that my business partner, and better half and I are not necessarily completely in alignment on how to answer this question. At least we weren't, we have talked a lot about it. She is responsible for making sure that there's pipeline etc, etc. And so her first response was, oh, crikey, how am I going to hit payroll? What am I going to do what and she was future tripping, you know, what happened if this goes on for a month, and she had this whole thing and, and really was like, this should be an opportunity to go help people and I can do this make these kind of moves. And I'm going to go out and sell like the dickens if you will.
And my response was, no, we're not going to actually sell anything. In fact, the first response I had to give my time away, and it's not because I'm smarter than her for sure. It is. It's just that I firmly believe having done this for so many times, and having been through two economic recessions, and running a branding practice through them, I know that the ones who win are the ones who love first and who are willing to risk it and be a force for good and figure out how to make money in the process, but not emphasize the money first.
Phil:
That's refreshing.
Lauren:
Great. I think we're in complete agreement. Because I also think as a branding agency, if you can accept money on a good day from a client, then you should be able to do something for them on a bad day in return. I see it more as like a long term investment in a relationship. And I think it's just kind of inappropriate and insensitive to sell. I mean, Phil and I talked about this on our on one of our podcast episodes that's already been released. And I just think that especially if you think about the brand of your business of yours, agency, it's important for people to remember that your agency was there for them when they needed it.
David:
That's so true too. And that's the kind of thing is when it comes down to it like we, this is all relationships, whether it's, you know, an agency world, you don't. I mean, maybe some people still get hired because they make cool stuff. I don't think that is what people that's not the outcome that people inside the clients are buying. They're buying the process of CO authoring together and climbing the mountain together and getting to that new space, whether it's growth or opinion change, or whatever it is, and it's a relationship.
So if you suddenly when things get tough, behave in a non relationship oriented fashion or become really transactional, it gets weird and and will have a residual effect that maybe people are not thinking about.
Lauren:
For sure. And looking at the case studies on your website, the brands, you've worked with our insane. Some of the biggest brands in 2020, let alone in the past 10 years. You've worked with them, you've helped them. And so I'm curious to know, how do you get those clients has it been mainly referrals? Is that the where the value of relationships come in? Talk us through that?
David:
Well, how much time do you guys have?
Phil:
I'm so excited for this question. So all the time that you want to take. Thank you for asking Lauren. It feels a bit selfish in a good way. I'm like, how have you grown your business? Please teach me your ways master?
Lauren:
Well, I'm just curious also for our listeners, because I know a lot of our listeners are creatives. They are designers. They're about to graduate from college and I think it's important for them to hear it from someone who's obviously very successful in this area.
David:
Well, thank you for your kind words. First thing I would say to anybody is this is a long term game. It is an ultra marathon. It is not a sprint. You sprint, you will be in a sad, sad place winded on the side. It's a long term game, and you have to have multiple ways of thinking about it. So if you think long term and you do all the stuff you're supposed to do, which is all forms of outreach, all forms of community service, all forms of networking, you do all of that and that's great.
But I think that that the thing that so many people in the creative field tend to miss is that they don't speak the language of business. And I encourage everybody, whether they're just starting out, or whether they've had an agency for a decade, to educate themselves, read business books, read business magazines, read business blogs, go to business networking events, and to learn that vocabulary because what you're going to discover is those humans have a different need than all your creative friends and all the people you went to school with. They speak a different language and if you can find a common ground then your created services become incredibly valuable because you can help them to solve complex, gnarly problems in their world and you can be of service to them. And oh, by the way, you might make some cool stuff. And that is the way to think about it.
Lauren:
Yeah. Because it's about your audience, right? And your audience is business people.
David:
Yes. So who could going to buy stuff from a branding agency, not another branding agency. So while we can be friends and we love each other, and we should we should help each other, it doesn't make sense to try to impress one another. It makes more sense to try to impress upon the business community, the tools that we have and expertise that we have hard earned over time to help them solve their their complex challenges. If it weren't a complex challenge, they would not need external resource to do it.
And then I also think that you asked you asked about referral and I want to say that the relationships are hugely important. So many of my opportunities over time have come from, well, I did this really good thing, and I got lucky enough to be in the room when it happened here. And then there were 12 key stakeholders and that client, now, a decade later, 10 of them are elsewhere. And if you do that, like I have for multiple decades, you end up with literally hundreds of people out in the world, know what it's like to be in the room when we're doing the work. So that is a very great referral network, and reassurance network.
Personally, we use it more as a reassurance network in trying to get people to send clients our way. When a new client comes in the door, we say hey, do you know so and so as you start to try to do that human thing and find common ground? We can. There's a little bit of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon going on so we can usually find somebody they know. And that is really powerful.
Phil:
Yeah, the world is small. The other advantage is our work, the nature of our work tends to be visual, whether it's graphic design, or it's, you know, I mean, any kind of brand project normally incorporates visuals. Do you have any insight? David, I'm often working with new grads, students, even people a few years into their business that sometimes struggle with showing proof of concept showing projects in their portfolio. I'd say even I've struggled a little bit to show the breadth of our work. For example, on our website, we're a branding agency, but a lot of what we do is positioning beyond just visual identity design. But when you look at our portfolio, the focus is on the visual identity design because it's the most visual component to show for what we do. Do you have any insight or advice on showing proof of concept for branding type projects?
David:
So this is this 64 kajillion dollar question. And I have approached it's very much like the movie Groundhog Day, in that I've gotten incrementally better every day by falling in the mud and falling in the hole and oversleeping, running into that insurance guy, and doing all the bad stuff. And then suddenly, one day, I started to say, hey, maybe I should learn. And so what you see on our website right now is the culmination of massive volumes of trial and error or failing forward. Because if you're going to truly do it, and you can show proof of concept, you're going to do something in the world that's called kiss and tell. And business people don't want you to kiss and tell, they don't want you to air any of their laundry, or any of their problems out that they would not publish themselves. So you have to do it very carefully. So we work with our clients from day one. So again, this will go back to getting clients, servicing clients, or having a relationship with them and also climbing steep mountains with them and solving problems.
During the business development process, we show them case studies that are way more in depth in what's on our website. And we say to someday should we work together, you will be called upon to be this reference point so that you can tell this story back to somebody so that when we show your case study, we are not, we're not just making stuff up. So the point of all of that is that we enroll them in the fact that we're going to tell their story, which helps them understand that we're committed that we think they're going to be successful.
And that by having a little variability process, they should anticipate low variability in outcome. Which means if the 20 case studies, we showed them, everybody won, and they followed a certain set of steps, if they do the same thing, like they did that they will win. So we do that with them.
And then we also have built our case studies to map to our processes, quite literally. So when we're in phase 1.26, of brand strategy, Model X, we know that when we're done, the data for the case study just got completed as well. And again, that's from Groundhog Day, not because we started out that just figuring that out.
So we're very choice and mindful through the process of what we can and cannot share in two years.
Phil:
Wow, that is so insightful and actually encouraging to people to also think about themselves and not just spending 100% of their energy servicing clients. Like we need that dose of reality reminder, Lauren, because we focus a lot on making sure our clients are happy. But actually, we need to be building our own proof of concept at the same time, while we're actually doing the work instead of waiting after months after Oh, yeah, what was that thing we did, and try to put it on the website. Super, super insightful. I have absolutely loved this conversation. And I wish this podcast could be four hours long, because I would ask you every question I have in my head, which is about 75 others.
I want to tell listeners that you've got a book that by the way is so freaking cute. It's bright pink, and beautifully designed. Hello. It's called Beloved and Dominant Brands. You're super insightful. As I said, we've never had another branding guest on the show, but you've given us, I just privately messaged Lauren and said, this is actually the first instance where I'm truly asking questions that I legitimately want the answers to, honestly, tell our other guests. I know, I feel terrible saying that. But I'm completely selfish right now and fully just immersed in learning from you. And I really appreciate that opportunity. And I know our listeners do as well. So thank you for that.
David:
Well, thank you for having me. It's been really a fun conversation. And I look forward to feedback from your listeners.
Phil:
Absolutely. Where can they find you besides going and checking out your book, where can people get more from you?
David:
So I post pretty frequently on LinkedIn because it's business in the front and I talked about about these types of insights in terms of the food and beverage industry, and wellness and fitness industries, and then also about, you know, the premise of why brands exists. So there's that channel I also on our core website, you can reach me there that's retailvoodoo.com, and those are probably the best ways to find me.
Phil:
Absolutely awesome. Thank you so much, David, for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy. We appreciate it beyond words, and we look forward to keeping in touch with you. Likewise. Thank you both for having me.
Lauren:
Thanks so much.
